The Abortion and Vaccination Thread

[Yeekim]

The way we are socialized to think about sex is deeply unhealthy and takes virtually no account of the perspective of our partners.

Maybe speak for yourself here?

 

[ulyssesSgrant]

Really? The fact that a man is capable of causing thousands of unplanned pregnancies in a year, while a woman can get pregnant at most twice in one year has no relevance to responsibility for unplanned pregnancies? Maybe it doesn't tell us much about moral responsibility in any particular case, but it is clearly telling us something about which of the sexes is likely to be causing more unplanned pregnancies in the aggregate.

In aggregate it shouldn't matter. Unless you are saying like, one careless man can do more damage than one careless women, that is true. But in aggregate, the number of women that men can impregnate is the same as the number of women that can be impregnated. It always involves one man and one women. It's just that it is possible there is only a small handful of different men, whereas that couldn't be the case for women.

It's not like every man could impregnate a thousand women, you would run out of women quickly, and then you would know that 999 out of 1000 men were not responsible. Ratio must always be one to one in aggregate.

 

[Lexicus]

I'm just saying that if you want to eradicate unplanned pregnancies, the lowest-hanging fruit is the relatively large proportion that could actually be prevented just by men behaving a little less riskily.
This is not rocket science, imo.

 

[Yeekim]

And as someone who does track her cycle for birth control, I still panic everytime until I get my period and I can be sure. You have no idea what that's like.

So you would rather reeducate every man on the planet about how they should care more, rather than tell your own boyfriend to wear a condom?
Mary, when you get pregnant (when, not if, because tracking cycle is not exactly ironclad), blaming your boyfriend - no matter how rightfully - is not going to make it go away. I suggest you take it up with him directly and urgently.

 

[Arwon]

Man this thread has precious little to do with reproductive health policy right now

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Man this thread has precious little to do with reproductive health policy right now

Did it ever?

 

[rah]

And just a side note since we've wandered, we're talking about not taking responsibility while ignoring the probably many millions of men that actually stepped up and married the woman they accidentally got pregnant. They are the heroes.

 

[Arwon]

Did it ever?

I haven't rolled all the way back but a lot of it seems to be this skeevy "but whose fault is doing the sex" stuff which I'm really not sure how it relates to questions of actual medical policy.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

And just a side note since we've wandered, we're talking about not taking responsibility while ignoring the probably many millions of men that actually stepped up and married the woman they accidentally got pregnant. They are the heroes.

I think the many millions of women that stepped up and married some mindless buffoon that accidentally got them pregnant just so their kid would have a dad are the real heroes.

 

[rah]

touche. I'm sure there are heroes on both sides. But thanks for the laugh.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

A woman is not responsible for what a man does or does not do. The man bears 100% of the responsibility for his actions.

If two people (regardless of gender) jointly partake in an activity, then they are both responsible for the consequences of said activity. Obviously neither person is (ultimately) responsible for the other person deciding to join in the activity, but they're responsible for their decision to do so.

The only obvious reasons to not hold either party to that standard are if you regard them to be mentally incompetent, or if their actions were significantly influenced by misinformation provided to them (not necessarily deliberately). Apply both of those reasons to the example given and explain why the hypothetical woman is being absolved of all responsibility whilst the man is shouldering 100% of it.

How can we credit removing leaded gasoline with a reduction in the crime rate.

Completely off topic, but is this a thing?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I actually would agree with the statement that unplanned pregnancies are overwhelmingly or almost entirely the fault of men. But I don't think it's 100% the fault of men 100% of the time.

"Unplanned" by whom? Do pregnancies the woman wants but the man doesn't not count?

No sex, no pregnancy. This is not "overwhelmingly" on men. It's 50% on men.

I take it your wife's cycles are regular and she has no medical issues such as hypothyroidism? There are many women whose cycles are irregular or they have thyroid issues (the two often go together) or other medical things going on that mean they can't know for sure just when it's safe to risk sex and not get pregnant.

From what I've heard, doctors have a word for couples that mostly rely on regular cycles to prevent pregnancies while still having sex:

Parents.

Really? The fact that a man is capable of causing thousands of unplanned pregnancies in a year

I'm curious about the logistics of this. Exactly how might a man cause THOUSANDS of unplanned pregnancies in a year? Even if he slept with two unique women every single day without taking a break (an exhausting horror show, at best) and every single one of them got pregnant in one go, he still wouldn't be close to 1000 lol.

If we assume other kinds of actions instead, you'd have to stretch pretty hard to still call these "unplanned".

Ignoring the exaggeration, the fact of the matter is that unless the man is a rapist he can cause exactly 0 "unplanned pregnancies" w/o consent.

Just so there is no confusion: the position I'm defending is, again, that men are mostly responsible for this issue, not entirely.

Even "mostly" isn't reasonable. If people don't have sex they don't get unplanned pregnancy. That's an undeniable, gender-neutral statement and an enormous elephant against the argument that men are somehow more responsible for the outcome than women.

Sex is good, healthy, and if done properly has no discernible negative consequences. I don't see the virtues in abstinence.

"Virtues" depends on what you mean. People make their own moral interpretations, but abstinence carries an absolute guard against both STI and pregnancy, a number of non-trivial potential legal consequences, and at least in principle can help avoid getting attached to someone with poor compatibility too quickly to evaluate that.

But pregnancy is just one of the reasons I think men in general should be reflecting more and having bad (bad meaning both unethical and unpleasurable) sex less.

Just men should reflect more? Not women, who are also willingly engaging in what you describe as "unethical and unpleasurable sex"? You can't realistically make a case they're not either, because if they weren't there wouldn't be unplanned pregnancy. Men and women both have to screw up to get that outcome, not just one or the other (unless one wants it and the other doesn't - there are serious ethical issues in that instance).

I think the many millions of women that stepped up and married some mindless buffoon that accidentally got them pregnant just so their kid would have a dad are the real heroes.

By that logic, as mindless buffoons themselves it's a good match. Certainly good on both of them for properly maintaining a family to raise the kid(s) though. Children of two parent households have an extreme advantage over single parent households on average.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Even if both parents are buffoons?

 

[El_Machinae]

Again, what does responsibility matter except at the margin?

When it comes to medical costs, does responsibility matter? I guess, if you don't want proper state funded Health Care.

When it comes to the cost of raising any resulting child, we do our very best to split the cost 50/50. We try, but fail. Partially because of societal pressure, partially because of simple biology

 

[Lexicus]

I'm curious about the logistics of this. Exactly how might a man cause THOUSANDS of unplanned pregnancies in a year? Even if he slept with two unique women every single day without taking a break (an exhausting horror show, at best) and every single one of them got pregnant in one go, he still wouldn't be close to 1000 lol.

"Thousands" was too high. More like "thousand" or "thousand and a half".

At any rate the point remains. Any one healthy man is baseline capable of causing far more pregnancies than any one healthy woman.

Just men should reflect more? Not women, who are also willingly engaging in what you describe as "unethical and unpleasurable sex"? You can't realistically make a case they're not either, because if they weren't there wouldn't be unplanned pregnancy. Men and women both have to screw up to get that outcome, not just one or the other (unless one wants it and the other doesn't - there are serious ethical issues in that instance).

Yes, just men. Because it is men that are overwhelmingly responsible for unpleasurable and unethical sex.

I know you don't care, but once again for others who may be interested:

Research shows that 30 percent of women report pain during vaginal sex, 72 percent report pain during anal sex, and "large proportions" don't tell their partners when sex hurts.

I have a feeling the response will be to blame women for this; they are consenting to the sex and refusing to talk about the pain! It's all their fault!

I honestly feel sorry for any sexual partners you may have had if you really think that is the extent of your obligation to make sure your partner is having a good time. "If she's not complaining and doesn't fight back it's fine."

Is that really the kind of sex anyone should be having?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yes, just men. Because it is men that are overwhelmingly responsible for unpleasurable and unethical sex.

Unless they are rapists, no.

I have a feeling the response will be to blame women for this; they are consenting to the sex and refusing to talk about the pain! It's all their fault!

A matter of fault you say...but yet both the man and woman chose to have sex.

I honestly feel sorry for any sexual partners you may have had if you really think that is the extent of your obligation to make sure your partner is having a good time.

What is done with partners isn't about "obligation", or at least walking that path out of obligation does not seem appealing.

"If she's not complaining and doesn't fight back it's fine."

Junk assertion, which is why I never made it. I've been operating on the assumption of consent in this discussion, because if we get away from that it's a different problem entirely.

Is that really the kind of sex anyone should be having?

People make their choices. They're not the choices I make, but I'm not going to tell them what they should do unless they start asking other people to pay for it rather than taking responsibility for their choices.

 

[Lexicus]

Junk assertion, which is why I never made it. I've been operating on the assumption of consent in this discussion, because if we get away from that it's a different problem entirely.

It's obviously not a junk assertion. I know you've been "operating on the assumption of consent": that is why I anticipated your response. You obviously don't feel that there is any ethical obligation beyond securing consent, the empirical measure of which is...what exactly? How do you tell whether someone is consenting to sex given that you can't read your partner's mind?

The entire point I'm making is that the universe of unethical sex is much larger than the universe of sex that isn't consented to. And every time I or anyone else tries to bring up that point you return to consent as if consent is the only relevant ethical consideration. Like here:

Because it is men that are overwhelmingly responsible for unpleasurable and unethical sex.

Unless they are rapists, no.

It doesn't take, ya know, Ludwig Wittgenstein to figure out the logical implications of that.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You obviously don't feel that there is any ethical obligation beyond securing consent, the empirical measure of which is...what exactly?

That's a good question, the variable answer to which has ruined the lives of men and women alike. Another point in the "reasons for abstinence" I suppose.

Ethics are not obligations. Rather, it's questionable how much ethical consideration is even retained in a scenario where something is obligated. It's better to keep the terms separate in this context. There are things you legally can't do, and things that people with "normal" ethical standards will not do.

How do you tell whether someone is consenting to sex given that you can't read your partner's mind?

Normally this is a function of what a person says, does, or both.

The entire point I'm making is that the universe of unethical sex is much larger than the universe of sex that isn't consented to.

You've yet to establish a clear delineation, perhaps that would be useful. Assuming we're still within legal boundaries, when is sex with consent ethical vs unethical, and how can a person reliably determine this in practice?

I would argue that cheating is unethical for example, despite that it is both legal and involves consent. I don't think this is what you were getting at though, so perhaps you could clarify.

It doesn't take, ya know, Ludwig Wittgenstein to figure out the logical implications of that.

It also doesn't take an IQ significantly above 100 to notice that the woman's decision is being marginalized outright by the logic that men are primarily responsible for what happens. If the woman has a say in whether sex happens, she is responsible for the act too. If it's unethical, painful, or otherwise problematic, why is she consenting? Why is the sex happening at all in that context?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Doesn't "fight back" rather imply some form of attack is taking place in the first place?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Doesn't "fight back" rather imply some form of attack is taking place in the first place?

Yes, that usage loaded, similar to a question like "when did you stop beating your wife".