The Feeling of Nothing

[Linkman226]

The line between those worthy of moral consideration and those not worthy.

Exactly what I stated: the ability to have desires and experience pain. In the event that you must choose two organisms capable of both, then you choose the one more capable of it.

 

[Takhisis]

Desires, that's a very vague definition.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread so I may repeat something which has already been said.

In nothingness, there's no feeling in the first place. So there's no "feeling" of nothing.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Exactly what I stated: the ability to have desires and experience pain. In the event that you must choose two organisms capable of both, then you choose the one more capable of it.

Ok then we'll do it the hard way. Which of these are worthy of moral consideration:

Great apes
8 week old fetus
15 week old fetus
30 week old fetus
Whales
Ravens
Parrots
Dogs
Cats
Rabbits
Elephants
Deer
Bears
Wolves
Pigs
Horses
Tigers
Rats
Alligators
Bats
Snakes
Sharks
Ants
Flies
Ticks
Spiders

Please bold, color, or otherwise group as appropriate so I can tell which are worthy of moral consideration.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

They are apparently aware enough to survive 350 million years on earth; pretty impressive even if they don't experience life as we do. Why should they experience life like we do? Is our experience superior? If you think so, how do you know that?

I think you can safely say that human experience/existence is superior/more precious. However from the cockroach point of wiev it may look just the opposite. So it may as well be a draw.

Edit: I like spirituality. So let me just add an aphorism which I have red quite recently:
"In Gods Eye there is nothing or nobody more important then anything else."

 

[Linkman226]

Ok then we'll do it the hard way. Which of these are worthy of moral consideration:

Great apes
8 week old fetus
15 week old fetus
30 week old fetus
Whales
Ravens
Parrots
Dogs
Cats
Rabbits
Elephants
Deer
Bears
Wolves
Pigs
Horses
Tigers
Rats
Alligators
Bats
Snakes
Sharks
Ants
Flies
Ticks
Spiders

Please bold, color, or otherwise group as appropriate so I can tell which are worthy of moral consideration.

Those worthy in green:

Great apes
8 week old fetus
15 week old fetus
30 week old fetus
Whales
Ravens
Parrots
Dogs
Cats
Rabbits
Elephants
Deer
Bears
Wolves
Pigs
Horses
Tigers
Rats
Alligators
Bats
Snakes
Sharks
Birds
Jaguars
Ants
Flies
Ticks
Spiders

 

[Yared]

While I'm really hoping for myself to live past 2094 (at least) and have the joy of not only seeing my great-grandchildren but also conversing with them about life and stuff, I must acknowledge that nothing is forever. Don't whine about the unchangeable. You were dead for billions and billions of years before you were born, and I'm pretty sure you did not suffer the slightest inconvenience from it.

The Stoics had interesting views. If you wanna, you could be the dog that's chained to the cart, barking while the cart goes from town to town. Or you could just try to be content with the life that you're living now and make the best out of it.

 

[Birdjaguar]

This. Not that I have any idea how to rid myself of them[*], but attachments don't help me appreciate joys. They can only get in the way, as far as I can see.

*Short of becoming a monk, which would likely still fail, and I'm not ready to try.

"In the evening I go up in the desert and spend hours watching the sun go down, just enjoying it, and every day I go out and watch it again. I draw some and there is a little painting and so the days go by."

"Live more and more in the present which is forever beautiful and stretches away beyond the limits of the past and future."

"Anyone who has spent hours painting with intense focus suddenly realizes that hours have passed, and it may have only seemed like minutes. Time does not exist in the altered state. It is the soul, singing."

I think you can safely say that human experience/existence is superior/more precious. However from the cockroach point of wiev it may look just the opposite. So it may as well be a draw.

Edit: I like spirituality. So let me just add an aphorism which I have red quite recently:
"In Gods Eye there is nothing or nobody more important then anything else."

"I think you can safely say that human experience/existence is superior/more precious [to us]." Edited for clarity

All non hive life sees its individual existence as central in importance. Such a perspective is buried in the foundation of consciousness.

Those worthy in green:

Great apes
8 week old fetus
15 week old fetus
30 week old fetus
Whales
Ravens
Parrots
Dogs
Cats
Rabbits
Elephants
Deer
Bears
Wolves
Pigs
Horses
Tigers
Rats
Alligators
Bats
Snakes
Sharks
Birds
Jaguars
Ants
Flies
Ticks
Spiders

I am surprised that your green group is as large as it is. I think your line is pretty clear. Thanks.

 

[MantaRevan]

I would slate it like this:

Great apes. Yes
8 week old fetus. No
15 week old fetus. Moderate
30 week old fetus. Yes
Whales. Yes
Ravens. Yes
Parrots. Yes
Dogs. Yes
Cats. Yes
Rabbits. Yes
Elephants. Yes
Deer. Yes
Bears. Yes
Wolves. Yes
Pigs. Yes
Horses. Yes
Tigers. Yes
Rats. Moderate
Alligators. Yes
Bats. Yes
Snakes. Yes
Sharks. Yes
Ants. No
Flies. No
Ticks No
Spiders. No

 

[Birdjaguar]

Yes, I'm not sure that an 8 week old fetus has "desires" even if it can feel pain. Definitions now come into play.

 

[Takhisis]

Strange that you're willing to give a chance to a snake or a bat but not a fetus. Speaks volumes about you.

 

[Linkman226]

Yes, I'm not sure that an 8 week old fetus has "desires" even if it can feel pain. Definitions now come into play.

I probably should have been clearer about this but I include potential as well. An eight-month old has all the cognitive capacity of an ant at that moment in time, but unlike an ant will mature into an adult human (barring tragic accidents).

 

[MantaRevan]

Strange that you're willing to give a chance to a snake or a bat but not a fetus. Speaks volumes about you.

Why should I? The snake and bat's sensory capacity is far greater than that of the early fetus.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Yes, I'm not sure that an 8 week old fetus has "desires" even if it can feel pain. Definitions now come into play.

Strange that you're willing to give a chance to a snake or a bat but not a fetus. Speaks volumes about you.

"have desires and feel pain" were his criteria, not mine. I don't feel that the early fetus fits his criteria for moral consideration. I haven't said a word about my thoughts on the matter.

I probably should have been clearer about this but I include potential as well. An eight-month old has all the cognitive capacity of an ant at that moment in time, but unlike an ant will mature into an adult human (barring tragic accidents).

Fair enough. How do you define "potential"?

 

[Linkman226]

As in it will eventually left in the status quo barring unfortunate circumstances? (No, Monty Python, not every sperm is sacred . Sperm left untouched just...die.)

 

[El_Machinae]

If it helps move the conversation forward, neither an 8 week or 15 week (human) fetus can feel pain. Their nociceptors have not integrated or begun signaling to any cognitive machinery by that stage. Because this is such an important moral fact (imo), I have spent a great deal of time researching this, so that I didn't have a shallow opinion on this topic.

 

[GoodGame]

The feeling of nothing.....feels like emptiness.

 

[Takhisis]

"have desires and feel pain" were his criteria, not mine. I don't feel that the early fetus fits his criteria for moral consideration. I haven't said a word about my thoughts on the matter.

I know, Manta Revan answered my comment anyway, so no harm done.

 

[holy king]

i'm fine with nothingness.

 

[Ran88dom99]

To avoid the fear of nothingness stop thinking about it. That is true of all fear.

But you have felt the fear of everything ending at least once right? I don't mean hanging in empty space as the nothingness.

Vegetarianism is the only ethical choice. I'm not strict.