The fine-tuning argument for God's existence

Likewise, if you say you know that something can't come from nothing, and thereby know more about the universe than any physicist on the planet, I'd be tempted to be skeptical.

As always, it is not just me who saying is. It is true, that some physicists, such as Lawrence Krauss, define nothing as an unstable quantum vacuum that contains no particles. But this is incompatible with the philosophical definition of nothing, since it can be defined by certain properties, and is governed by physical laws. Even many philosophers criticize physical explanations of how the Universe arose from nothing, claiming that they merely beg the question.

The law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system cannot change. The zero-energy universe states that the total amount of energy in the Universe is exactly zero. That is the only kind of universe that could come from nothing, assuming such a zero-energy universe is, already, nothing.

You don't have to act like I broke some news to you. Nihil fit ex nihilo is an age old common sense philosophical expression of a thesis first argued by Parmenides.
 
Apart from that, the amount of trust I have is dependent on the claim in question. If you tell me you have 2 cats and live in a house, I'd probably believe you.

On irrelevant note would you trust me if I tell you it's been 57 hours as we missed you playing Diadochi :mischief: ?
 
@ Perfection

Time is just objects in motion and their relationship to that motion. The only way to remove time is to stop motion. What would happen if all photons were removed from the universe?

Mere motion is not a full view of time as we know it.

Time has properties of its own:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime
 
As always, it is not just me who saying is. It is true, that some physicists, such as Lawrence Krauss, define nothing as an unstable quantum vacuum that contains no particles. But this is incompatible with the philosophical definition of nothing, since it can be defined by certain properties, and is governed by physical laws. Even many philosophers criticize physical explanations of how the Universe arose from nothing, claiming that they merely beg the question.
Who cares what philosophers say? The value of science is that we learn more and more about how the world works, and supercede what Aristoteles may have thought what nothing is 2.500 years ago. We can philosophize about all kinds of concepts as much as we want, but only through measurements and empiric methods do we gain knowledge of reality.

The law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system cannot change. The zero-energy universe states that the total amount of energy in the Universe is exactly zero. That is the only kind of universe that could come from nothing, assuming such a zero-energy universe is, already, nothing.
I'm not sure if you implied it with your statement, but the total amount of energy in our universe does in fact seem to be zero.

On irrelevant note would you trust me if I tell you it's been 57 hours as we missed you playing Diadochi ?
I totally trust you there! I've currently got a lot of work to do during the week. But I'm on it as we speak!
 
Did I say common sense? I said quantum common sense. In common sense your fly is either up or down. In quantum common sense the spin is in the undetectable state of superposition.

I do not want to go into less quantum common sense interpretations discussions. The moment you say "wave function" or use imaginary number anywhere in your mathematical apparatus -- you work with something you cannot observe. We better keep this discussion on topic, otherwise you can open a new thread about the most embarrassing graph in modern physics:

qmpoll.jpg

I do not think it is the most embarrassing graph in modern physics and the most important reason is that it is not about physics, but philosophy. Nevertheless it illustrates my points nicely and provides counterarguments for yours:

First, it show that when it comes to interpretations to quantum mechanics there is no such thing as quantum common sense. There are new attempts to approach this subjects every week and hardly anything gets thrown out. This graph would turn very differently if you asked other physicists than those 30 in that graph.

Second, the majority of people have voted for interpretations that take the wave function to be epistemic. In those, we cannot observe the wave function, because it does not exist in an objective manner. It is just the way we describe the knowledge we have about a system.

There are interpretations that take the wave function to be ontic, i.e. something that really exists. In that case, there are indeed things we cannot observe. However, this line of thinking quickly leads to the Many-Worlds interpretation. And that interpretation - to get back to the topic - is a very hard hit against any fine-tuning argument. According to the MWI there are infinitely universes - enough to counter any probability argument.

Perfy, why would you say that a nucleus decay is uncaused? Surely it's more proper to say that it appears to happen randomly to us?

Indeed. The cause of nuclear decay is the coupling to the vacuum modes. Take the vacuum modes away (not exactly an easy thing to do with nuclear decay), and there would be no decay.
 
That gets into some serious hair splitting in terms of causes vs. explanation and proximate versus ultimate causes (and it probably depends on QM interpretation). The main point is when the decay occurs it is seemingly random and not traceable to any particular trigger. That's the sense I say it's uncaused. I wholeheartedly agree that it does depend on perspective, I probably should have been a little less loose. The lesson here is counterintuitive nature of causation in currently avcepted physics.
 
Well, you have to be incredibly careful regarding your audience. To me as reading "the result of coin toss doesn't have a cause", which is ridiculous.

I just don't see how you can say decay is uncaused (definitively). I mean, we don't even have a coherent description of the universe yet. unknown strikes me as better, no?
 
Well, you have to be incredibly careful regarding your audience. To me as reading "the result of coin toss doesn't have a cause", which is ridiculous.

I just don't see how you can say decay is uncaused (definitively). I mean, we don't even have a coherent description of the universe yet. unknown strikes me as better, no?

Yeah well I was very drunk when I made that post. Maybe "apparently uncaused" as in we can't see the cause.
 
Who cares what philosophers say? The value of science is that we learn more and more about how the world works, and supercede what Aristoteles may have thought what nothing is 2.500 years ago. We can philosophize about all kinds of concepts as much as we want, but only through measurements and empiric methods do we gain knowledge of reality.

I am not sure its a good idea to throw philosophy (and ethics/spirituality) out of window so easily. You may study physical reality in detail through physical senses and scientific instruments made to enhence them but its the nature of your mind and its refinement which ultimately decides quality of your life. Your mental/psychic world cant be properly understandable through comprehension of electrochemical reactions in your brain solely. Much less it can be mastered through such an understanding.
The importance of mind as a non-physical entity in human life is such that it determines your happiness and satisfaction regardless of the actual physical facts. And to grasp its nature is therefore not less but perhaps more important to the undertsanding of the world we are living in.
 
The bible clearly says you can own people as property. It gives detailed instructions who you can enslave and how long. Hebrew slaves for example remain their master's property for six years, after which they can be released. If the slave is married and has children, his wife and children will remain with his master forever.

It does not say that you can own people as property. It says that Moses gave a law that permitted people to treat slaves in a certain way. The Bible has examples where God told a human to go and kill people, but that is different than telling you and any one today that they can go out and kill people.

Foreign slaves are in an even worse position, the bible says you can keep them as long as you want, and pierce a ring through their ear to show they belong to you.
It also gives detailed instructions on how to treat slaves. For example you are not allowed to beat them so hard that they die in three days. If they die five days after the beating, no problem.
There is no punishment whatsoever for masters raping their female slaves. Unless she is married - then the female slave will get whipped as a punishment.

Can you show proof in the Bible where it is that specific and graphic?

This, and much more hideous barbaric nonsense on the topic of slavery is all spelled out explicitly in your holy book. I recommend you pick it up and read it!

First of all, the Bible is not a "Holy Book". That is a religious concept that humans have given to it. If it is not "your" holy book, or "my" holy book, I am not sure where that argument is going. Even if I were to say that it is a guideline for my life, you honestly think that I would carry out every thing that every human did in it? The Hebrews failed at keeping the law. It was too hard for them. Now as humans, they may have kept up the barbaric parts and threw out the ones dealing with their God. Even before Christianity became popular, the Hebrew Law was already condemned in the Bible as availing nothing.

You are not seriously equating owning human beings as property with paying taxes or interest on loans, are you? With all due respect, you really don't want to go there. Don't you think it's rather telling that you have to come up with such utterly ridiculous comparisons to rationalize the barbarism in the bible?

Yes; because in today's economy, the government and employers actually by contract own you. There are certain obligations that you have to do. If you do not do these things, you are sent to prison. The whole ancient world was barbaric, and in some countries today, barbarism still exist, and they cannot use the Bible as an excuse, because there are educated humans like yourself who know better.

Mere motion is not a full view of time as we know it.

Time has properties of its own:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

Your source states:

Until the beginning of the 20th century, time was believed to be independent of motion, progressing at a fixed rate in all reference frames; however, later experiments revealed that time slows at higher speeds of the reference frame relative to another reference frame. Such slowing, called time dilation, is explained in special relativity theory. Many experiments have confirmed time dilation, such as the relativistic decay of muons from cosmic ray showers and the slowing of atomic clocks aboard a Space Shuttle relative to synchronized Earth-bound inertial clocks. The duration of time can therefore vary according to events and reference frames.

Is time independent with it's own set of properties, or subject to events and reference frames?
 
Yes; because in today's economy, the government and employers actually by contract own you. There are certain obligations that you have to do. If you do not do these things, you are sent to prison.

That is only true if you do something like kill your boss, assuming your contract says "do not kill anyone while employed here mmkay" or steal intellectual property or whatever. But I guess maybe I don't know what you're talking about.
 
Sorry was rushing out the door when I made that post. Time is not merely motion as you stated but has other properties dependent on other things. Specifically it is intimately connected with space and energy, you can't simply pull it away. So when you talk about the beginning of the universe when space and energy was much different than now you have to remember time behaved differently too. In addition if you talk about time before space then you must realize that you're postulating a form of time very different then we experience.

You need to be open to the idea that the beginning of the universe was a very counterintuitive event and be very careful in stating what properties it must have.
 
Yeah well I was very drunk when I made that post. Maybe "apparently uncaused" as in we can't see the cause.

It is the same situation as putting a weak laser beam on a photon detector. I cannot tell before the experiment at which times the photons will be detected. Yet, I would not call it "apparently uncaused", because I can point to the cause - the laser.

I would make a fine, but firm distinction between a non-deterministic process and an uncaused one. The former can still have a cause, I just don't know the result. The latter is totally random and I have no means (even in theory) to influence it.

Quantum mechanics puts a lot of assumptions we tend to regard as common sense into question, but I do not think causality is one of them.
 
As always, it is not just me who saying is. It is true, that some physicists, such as Lawrence Krauss, define nothing as an unstable quantum vacuum that contains no particles. But this is incompatible with the philosophical definition of nothing, since it can be defined by certain properties, and is governed by physical laws. Even many philosophers criticize physical explanations of how the Universe arose from nothing, claiming that they merely beg the question...

You don't have to act like I broke some news to you. Nihil fit ex nihilo is an age old common sense philosophical expression of a thesis first argued by Parmenides.

Don't try to pin this on philosophers! First, there is no such thing as "the philosophical definition of nothing". Some philosophers may have tried to define it, but I don't think there's any agreed definition, and if there were, so what? Just because philosophers have said something doesn't make it true.

As for "nihil fit ex nihilo", the fact that it's age-old, and common-sense, is absolutely irrelevant to its truth. Common sense covers the phenomena of everyday experience, because that's what our brains evolved to deal with. Our brains did not evolve to generate true principles about the origins of the universe. And what seems common sense to us in the phenomenal sphere doesn't apply to other spheres, as the quantum mechanics you keep citing amply demonstrates. If you think Parmenides is an authority on this, I'd say he's superseded by Kant, who argued persuasively that you simply cannot take principles - even general and unchanging principles - from the empirical, phenomenal realm and assume that they apply to the metaphysical realm (if any) beyond that. That means that even if it's true that (e.g.) nothing comes from nothing in our experience, you've no grounds at all for saying that this is an unbreakable principle that applies to things that are necessarily beyond our experience, such as the origins of the universe itself.

Indeed the very notion of causation as a Real Thing at all was pretty much wrecked by Hume, and as far as I know hasn't ever really recovered from his demolition job. Even if you don't accept his conclusions, it still remains the case that anything you can say about "causation", which is what this whole thing is really about, is simply an interpretation of a set of observations made about the world as you experience it; and that interpretation is, furthermore, determined by the way your brain is set up. We have evolved to believe in a certain and rather fuzzy notion of "causation" because this way of perceiving the world proved reproductively useful to us. That gives us very little basis to assume reality matches our notion, let alone that it's an inviolable principle that transcends the physical realm itself.

What seems a common sense, inviolable principle to one generation may turn out not to be. In the seventeenth century it was taken for granted that causation must, necessarily, occur only between objects that are physically touching (directly or indirectly). The notion of causation at a distance across a vacuum was taken to be necessarily impossible by definition. Then Newton came along with his gravity and his empty space. Now people have no problem with causation at a distance. Personally I have no problem at all with the notion that something might come from nothing. The fact that Parmenides, who knew absolutely nothing about reality beyond what he saw around him, might have thought otherwise is neither here nor there.
 
Do we accept action at a distance though? As far as I know it still causes some scratching of heads. How does gravity act at a distance? Don't people still look for some exchange of material (gravitons, or whatever - I don't know) to explain it?
 
We have gravitons, which are 'things' after a fashion (at that level, the difference between particles, being things, and waves, being disturbances in other things, is usually academical and unknowable) - but then there's quantum entanglement, which is extremely confusing.
 
The moment you say "wave function" or use imaginary number anywhere in your mathematical apparatus -- you work with something you cannot observe.

So? I'd rather work with something well-defined than something you can observe but changes based on each person's individual interpretation, like, an apple. How small can you cut an apple before it's no longer an apple?

A lot of people seem to regard natural numbers as somehow more real than imaginary numbers. They're both just well-defined abstract objects that can be used as in a model for reality, or not. Can you really observe the number 4? Or do you just see a bunch of molecules, organize it into objects, and use an expression that represents the number of distinct objects you choose to identify? 4 is just as abstract and as unobservable as i.
 
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