The Gallic War

[donsig]

I agree with some of what all three of you have said. Strider's right that we should take our time and push the Galls back to the beaches. BCLG100 is right that our southern cities aren't much use to us productionwise. lost_civantares is right that the Galls are trying to keep us pinned down. Taking all this together I think we really need to focus on building cities and increasing our population. If we rebuild our core cites that will help us to push the Galls back. If we pump workers out of Semtex and Dancing Banana (cities almost surrounded by irrigated flood plains) we can get Shilhanopolis, Provobomb, Carpetbomb and rebuilt Unabomb and Horsebomb up to city cize with nice improved tiles to work. If we concentrate on just defending ourselves and killing whatever Galls decide to land here we can survive this war until war weariness takes its toll on the Galls and they want peace. I think we have more luxuries than they do so we can outlast them. Any extra offensive units we can make should not be sent off to Gall but down south where the Iroqi can see them. By remaining strong compared to Iroq we can deter them from joining the Galls.

 

[BCLG100]

No we cant really hold of war weariness for as long as they can because as they told me in chat if that does become a problem they can simply switch to monarchy in one turn, so were either going to have to sign a peace treaty which could be negative in our favour now or take the fight to them quickly, i strongly disagree to adding workers to cities until we have worked the tiles surrounding them.

If we are planning on attacking KISS then i strongly advise against sending offensive units south, if you really want to send units south let them be pikes.

If we're planning an invasion to take a city, here's what i see we need.
10 galleys thats 20 unit spaces, we need 5 pikemen, 14 immortals and a settler. That way we can create a base of operations. From there we can start shipping units back and forth while also being instantly able to attack.

 

[donsig]

No we cant really hold of war weariness for as long as they can because as they told me in chat if that does become a problem they can simply switch to monarchy in one turn, so were either going to have to sign a peace treaty which could be negative in our favour now or take the fight to them quickly, i strongly disagree to adding workers to cities until we have worked the tiles surrounding them.

I'm not an expert, but if we have more luxuries and are willing to raise our lux setting can't we go longer without hitting the war weariness wall? In any event I think their threat to switch to monarchy is a bluff I'd call. They can't afford to switch out of republic and let the Greeks get up on them techwise. Keeping the Nutters neutral is key for us. Anyone who can should start chatting with a Nut and try to get us a deal with them!

If we are planning on attacking KISS then i strongly advise against sending offensive units south, if you really want to send units south let them be pikes.

Well, I'm not advocating that we invade Gall. I say we drive them to the beaches and slaughter them then leave enough power up north to deal with any subsequent landings. As I said above, Iroqi nuetrality is very, very important to us. They are weak and if we show them our offence they will think twice before joing the Galls.

If we're planning an invasion to take a city, here's what i see we need.
10 galleys thats 20 unit spaces, we need 5 pikemen, 14 immortals and a settler. That way we can create a base of operations. From there we can start shipping units back and forth while also being instantly able to attack.

That's 600 shields just for the military units. I don't know how much galley's are but say they are also 30 shields each. That brings our total investment up to 900 shields. If we had 6 cities pumping out 10 shields per turn it'd take 15 turns to build this force. What will our war weariness be in 15 turns? Now, let's come back to reality. We have TWO cities that can make 10spt, not six. And neither of these are coastal cities. Do we really want to spend 30 to 45 turns making this force?

Invading Gall is not a good idea at all. Let's forget about it and concentrate on doing what we need to do to raise our power and our score. Let's start thinking about how we can turn research back on so we're not at our current technology level when everyone else has military tradition.

 

[BCLG100]

exactly thats why im saying that invading KISS homeland isnt such a hot idea, so therefore we should start discussing peace now, what are we willing to offer? because its going to be the same peace now as what will be achieved in 15 turns except maybe worse for us.

There also in a GA right now so they'll be extending their lead in techs so i reckon they'll be ok with the switch.

 

[donsig]

I saw we're willing to let their Gallic swordsmen leave our continent with their lives. If we can keep the Iroqi neutral, then the Galls will need peace more than us. We should be asking them what they're going to give us for the cities we lost. They are in position to extort anything from us.

 

[BCLG100]

Yes they are so there going to be wanting more than just their swordsmen leaving with their lives, why should they give us anything? theyve been winning this war and can carry it on for a long time.

 

[TimBentley]

Based on donsig's numbers in the played turns thread, the Galls would have about 32 gallic swordsmen if their army was only GSs. Actually, due to our regular units they probably would have less than that.

 

[BCLG100]

K been speaking with them again, what they want in a peace treaty is land an area like what we have with the nutters so they could settle, dont think its going to be a huge piece but am waiting for them to get back formally to me.

 

[Strider]

Based on donsig's numbers in the played turns thread, the Galls would have about 32 gallic swordsmen if their army was only GSs. Actually, due to our regular units they probably would have less than that.

Well, Figuring that about half of that is defense... then that is only 16 gallic swordsmen. Half of which are currently over on our continent. We kill these 7 and that will bring the total down to 9 gallic swordsmen.

Not much of an army.

I'm betting they are using their GA to build improvements and I'm almost certain that they think we won't attack them.

I say we rid our continent of the gallic swordsmen, then offer the galls a "ceasefire" to discuss peace options. We can use the ceasefire to safely re-build our cities and get some of the southern cities slightly productive. After that, the peace talks will fail, and we can do some damage.

 

[BCLG100]

Well, Figuring that about half of that is defense... then that is only 16 gallic swordsmen. Half of which are currently over on our continent. We kill these 7 and that will bring the total down to 9 gallic swordsmen.

Not much of an army.

I'm betting they are using their GA to build improvements and I'm almost certain that they think we won't attack them.

I say we rid our continent of the gallic swordsmen, then offer the galls a "ceasefire" to discuss peace options. We can use the ceasefire to safely re-build our cities and get some of the southern cities slightly productive. After that, the peace talks will fail, and we can do some damage.

no theyve already told me they shall pursue the war until a peace treaty has been signed, so doubt we'll get a ceasefire.

 

[Strider]

Just took a look at the save. So here's a break down of a way to "balance" out our military, reconstruction, and improvement needs.

Fort Carbon just finished a library, start it on a worker.

Switch Shilhanopolis, vbruanopolis, and Fort Incendiary to workers. All three should finish next turn, we can move the workers down towards Fort Carbon, Fruitbomb, and torusopolis. Have each city build two workers (for a total of six new workers.. three next turn). Then switch them back to Immortal production.

Switch Dancing Banana to a settler. Semtax and dancing banana should switch between immortal and settler production.

Dynopolis, Provobomb, Carpetbomb, and grenadepolis keeps working on immortals.

Switch Fruitbomb from walls to a worker (should finish next turn).

-----

In summary, this will give us 4 new workers next turn. 8 new workers total in the next 10 turns... this should be more than enough to cut through the jungle in the southern reaches of our empire.

Semtax and Dancing Banana and switch between settler and immortal production.. most likely pulling out 3 settlers every ten turns using this method.

Provobomb is currently building a library, but once it's completed we can change it back to immortal production.. with dynopolis, Carpetbomb, and grenadopolis also producing immortals that should give us a reasonable supply of immortals incase anything comes up.

Some proposed micromangement for next turn:
Carpet bomb has an unroaded hill... switch the citizen currently working the tile southest of the cows to work that hill. The city will grow in the same amount of time, and we finish the immortal a turn sooner.

Dynopolis has a citizen working an unworked grassland tile. Switch it to work the mined grassland tile south of the city. This will let us finish the immortal a turn sooner.

Dancing Banana has a citizen working an unworked grassland tile south of the city. Switch the citizen to work one of the forests... same growth time and we finish the settler a turn sooner.

Semtax has a citizen working an unworked grassland tile. Switch them to work the newly mined grassland tile northwest of the city(where the workers are sitting at the start of this turn). Basically the same as everything else.. same growth time, but we finish the settler a turn sooner.

Provobomb doesn't have many improved tiles. We have the horses hooked up north of Semtax, can we move atleast one of those two workers to provobomb to mine acouple of those grassland tiles?

 

[Strider]

no theyve already told me they shall pursue the war until a peace treaty has been signed, so doubt we'll get a ceasefire.

Then they risk allowing M.I.A become stronger than themselves. They are already prepared to finish this war. They want out, pure and simple. This war was just to do some damage and get their Golden Age activated.

They are not preparing for a continuation of the war with us. They are preparing for war with M.I.A. Using their golden age to build up the necessary force to launch a successful invasion.

With their recent troop movements, they don't really seem concerned with attacking us, but rather just keeping their remaining units alive. I'm betting there is a galley waiting to pick them up.

They have no intention of making this war last any longer than it has. First off, they can't do any real damage to us anymore. Any invasion will make them lose three units for every one of ours. Short of our coastel cities, we are in very little danger. Although we do need to get some pikemen into Carpetbomb and grenadopolis.

 

[BCLG100]

I dont agree we should be cutting down jungle near our far away cities when cities close to our core have very little of anything, also you are proposing pretty much turning off military production for awhile- we are at war!

Have the cities down south building workers and catapults, that way they dont need a barracks and can be of some use to us, switching between a worker barracks will allow the workers down there to help them cities out of trouble.

Also why are you proposing we have our most productive cities to build settlers? we need to keep up with production of military units, if we need to raise the luxury slider then so be it, were getting furs off MIA soon so that should help us with unhappy faces.

 

[BCLG100]

Then they risk allowing M.I.A become stronger than themselves. They are already prepared to finish this war. They want out, pure and simple. This war was just to do some damage and get their Golden Age activated.

They are not preparing for a continuation of the war with us. They are preparing for war with M.I.A. Using their golden age to build up the necessary force to launch a successful invasion.

With their recent troop movements, they don't really seem concerned with attacking us, but rather just keeping their remaining units alive. I'm betting there is a galley waiting to pick them up.

They have no intention of making this war last any longer than it has. First off, they can't do any real damage to us anymore. Any invasion will make them lose three units for every one of ours. Short of our coastel cities, we are in very little danger. Although we do need to get some pikemen into Carpetbomb and grenadopolis.

They have a 50 turn peace treaty and if your expecting them to break it then go check out some of their SG's with the idiots- they dont break peace treaties. So yes in 50 turns maybe they will be launching an attack against MIA. How do you mean they risk MIA becoming stronger? there in a GA and have the ability to combat war weariness easily, they are very wary of MIA yes but they know what there doing in the war.

They may want the war to last any longer, however theyve still won this battle, 3 cities to a few swordsmen is a bargain id take any day.

 

[Strider]

I dont agree we should be cutting down jungle near our far away cities when cities close to our core have very little of anything, also you are proposing pretty much turning off military production for awhile- we are at war!

Have the cities down south building workers and catapults, that way they dont need a barracks and can be of some use to us, switching between a worker barracks will allow the workers down there to help them cities out of trouble.

Also why are you proposing we have our most productive cities to build settlers? we need to keep up with production of military units, if we need to raise the luxury slider then so be it, were getting furs off MIA soon so that should help us with unhappy faces.

We have four workers inside of our core, that's plenty to keep the core cities improved. We need to get the southern cities atleast alittle productive.

The cities down south will take about 10+ turns to build a single worker. Where now we have three cities that can build them instantly. It's not like the two core cities we have producing them will take long. 3 turns total for two workers in shilianopolis and 4 turns total for two workers in vbruanopolis. After that they can be right back to immortal production. What do we miss out on? Half an immortal? Okay, technically it will be 2/3 of two immortals for four completely build workers. Not much of a lost for something we are in desperate need of.

Semtax and Dancing Banana are really the only two cities capable of building settlers in any resonable amount of time. Anyway, with a new productive city in the old Unabomb spot.. not only counting the addition of other cities that we build.. the production will be well worth it. It's better to get these cities built earlier, for we can get the tiles worked and get them productive sooner. Then we can use them to build even more immortals (or knights) to use in our defense/offense.

 

[Strider]

They have a 50 turn peace treaty and if your expecting them to break it then go check out some of their SG's with the idiots- they dont break peace treaties. So yes in 50 turns maybe they will be launching an attack against MIA. How do you mean they risk MIA becoming stronger? there in a GA and have the ability to combat war weariness easily, they are very wary of MIA yes but they know what there doing in the war.

They may want the war to last any longer, however theyve still won this battle, 3 cities to a few swordsmen is a bargain id take any day.

Take a look at the map. M.I.A. controls 20% of the land area.. and 32% of the worlds population. That is a hell of alot of production power M.I.A. is sitting on.. and 20% of the land area doesn't leave alot of room on that continent for K.I.S.S. Actually, if you look at Mpanana... you can see greek borders above that. Less than 10 turns away from the K.I.S.S. capital.

At best, the gallic golden age has allowed K.I.S.S. to gain a slight advantage over M.I.A. Once the 20 turns are over though, that advantage won't stick around for long.

Your acting like the situtation is so much worst than it really is. They've surprised us once, and got lucky enough to find a weak spot in our defenses. Even with most of our forces 5+ turns away.. and them having a two movement UU.. they still only managed to destroy three cities (that.. are less than 5 tiles away from each other).

Even if they want to do "all out war" against us, there Golden Age won't assure them victory. Using pikemen/immortal combos, their swordsmen are always has a lower chance of winning then our units. We will kill them off 2 to 1. Not only that, but they will have to ship the new units over.. severely limiting the size of their army. We will beable to build units and get them to the front almost immediantly.

We are in trouble if the Iroqi decides to join the war, but with some slightly productive southern cities (atleast capable of making a pikeman in 7 or 8 turns) that will slowly become less of a problem over time.

 

[BCLG100]

We have four workers inside of our core, that's plenty to keep the core cities improved. We need to get the southern cities atleast alittle productive.

The cities down south will take about 10+ turns to build a single worker. Were now we have three cities that can build them instantly. It's not like the two core cities we have producing them will take long. 3 turns total for two workers in shilianopolis and 4 turns total for two workers in vbruanopolis. After that they can be right back to immortal production. What do we miss out on? Half an immortal? Okay, technically it will be 2/3 of two immortals for four completely build workers. Not much of a lost for something we are in desperate need of.

Semtax and Dancing Banana are really the only two cities capable of building settlers in any resonable amount of time. Anyway, with a new productive city in the old Unabomb spot.. not only counting the addition of other cities that we build.. the production will be well worth it. It's better to get these cities built earlier, for we can get the tiles worked and get them productive sooner. Then we can use them to build even more immortals (or knights) to use in our defense/offense.

4 workers is nowhere near enough, should be using at least 2 per city, now correct me if im wrong but 4 isnt 2 per city for every city we have now is it?

Yes the cities down south will take 10 turns to produce a worker but seeing how thats all they'll be doing it isnt going to have much of an effect whereas limiting our military capabilities will, if we can get ourselves stronger than KISS we can maybe get a better peace treaty in our favour.

yes we need some more productive cities but building settlers in our 2 most productive cities is just plain silly especially if your only building one settler per one immortal, just what is going to be defending these cities???

If you insist on building settlers in the 2 core cities then it should be 2/3 military units per settler not just one.

 

[Strider]

4 workers is nowhere near enough, should be using at least 2 per city, now correct me if im wrong but 4 isnt 2 per city for every city we have now is it?

Yes the cities down south will take 10 turns to produce a worker but seeing how thats all they'll be doing it isnt going to have much of an effect whereas limiting our military capabilities will, if we can get ourselves stronger than KISS we can maybe get a better peace treaty in our favour.

yes we need some more productive cities but building settlers in our 2 most productive cities is just plain silly especially if your only building one settler per one immortal, just what is going to be defending these cities???

If you insist on building settlers in the 2 core cities then it should be 2/3 military units per settler not just one.

Yeah, we don't even need a single worker per city, much less two workers per city. That will be 26 workers, I don't even get that many workers in my single player games.. and that's with a huge map. Counting the production of Fort Incendiary and the worker in Fruitbomb.. that will be a total of 7 workers in less than 5 turns. 5 turns.. in return for 7 workers. This will almost double the amount of workers we currently have (if we build two more workers.. it will double it). In return for 5 turns... 2/3 of an immortal in three cities.

We will never get stronger than K.I.S.S. if all we ever build is military units.

 

[BCLG100]

Take a look at the map. M.I.A. controls 20% of the land area.. and 32% of the worlds population. That is a hell of alot of production power M.I.A. is sitting on.. and 20% of the land area doesn't leave alot of room on that continent for K.I.S.S. Actually, if you look at Mpanana... you can see greek borders above that. Less than 10 turns away from the K.I.S.S. capital.

At best, the gallic golden age has allowed K.I.S.S. to gain a slight advantage over M.I.A. Once the 20 turns are over though, that advantage won't stick around for long.

Your acting like the situtation is so much worst than it really is. They've surprised us once, and got lucky enough to find a weak spot in our defenses. Even with most of our forces 5+ turns away.. and them having a two movement UU.. they still only managed to destroy three cities (that.. are less than 5 tiles away from each other).

Even if they want to do "all out war" against us, there Golden Age won't assure them victory. Using pikemen/immortal combos, their swordsmen are always has a lower chance of winning then our units. We will kill them off 2 to 1. Not only that, but they will have to ship the new units over.. severely limiting the size of their army. We will beable to build units and get them to the front almost immediantly.

We are in trouble if the Iroqi decides to join the war, but with some slightly productive southern cities (atleast capable of making a pikeman in 7 or 8 turns) that will slowly become less of a problem over time.

So whats your point? theyve still done better in this war than what we have.

 

[BCLG100]

Yeah, we don't even need a single worker per city, much less two workers per city. That will be 26 workers, I don't even get that many workers in my single player games.. and that's with a huge map. Counting the production of Fort Incendiary and the worker in Fruitbomb.. that will be a total of 7 workers in less than 5 turns. 5 turns.. in return for 7 workers. This will almost double the amount of workers we currently have (if we build two more workers.. it will double it). In return for 5 turns... 2/3 of an immortal in three cities.

We will never get stronger than K.I.S.S. if all we ever build is military units.

well then your not really a very good player if you neglect to build workers, huge map just means you need more.

it would be very handy to build all this, however your assuming were in a state of peace but were not.

DId you just say we'd never get stronger than KISS with just military units...