The Gender Mod

[ibcoltscrew]

I don't think that birth control should increase great people birth rate, since with birth control educated people tend to have fewer babies than uneducated people.

So true, this is the case in Canada right now...

 

[Optimizer]

To clarify myself, one reason why I have not included matriarchy is that I have not found enough documentation to make a good model or civilopedia description. If I got some links, I could consider a matriarchal civic.

 

[Silica_Pathways]

but rather how often children reach adulthood with the right heredity and environment to be Great.

So all those kids which are born in drunkard, narcotic addict, etc families have right heredity and environment ? In countries with good working birth control, most of births happen in all these disadvantegous families, so the actual quality of next generation lowers.

 

[Perfect_Blue]

The Dine, or Navajo. operate under a matriarchal extended-clan system. The N'dee, or Apache (a Zuni word for enemy), also operate under a matriarchal system. There are examples upon examples of matriarchal systems present on every continent and in every era.

 

[ibcoltscrew]

Anyway, most of Great People in our world were nothing since they discover something... Most of them were poor children with nothing except a BIG dream(flying, Creating Light, Going on the moon, etc) i'm thinking about Einstein too (don't have to say why) ... Nobody knew Einstein was Smart... But now we got all respect for him cause we know he was too smart for us.

Great People are not from Great Family... most of the time it is natural born and there is nothing you can do about it... i think about Bush... He is not smart at all and he is suppose to be "some kind" of "Great People" and he is NOT !

My opinion tho, nothing personal about it !

 

[ibcoltscrew]

There are examples upon examples of matriarchal systems present on every continent and in every era.

True, Québec is some kind of Matriarchal system... The Women here can get whatever they want and the law are made for them since the "Liberation de la Femme". Most of family are running under Mother's law and father are usually there to work and bring money at home (thats it). In return the women can do almost whatever they want with they're children cause the law is made to protect the women and not the man.

too bad but this is the REAL Liberalism after all !

 

[Optimizer]

So all those kids which are born in drunkard, narcotic addict, etc families have right heredity and environment ? In countries with good working birth control, most of births happen in all these disadvantegous families, so the actual quality of next generation lowers.

Your opinions on birth control are very prejudicing.

Children from heavy alcoholics and drug addicts are to few to have had any significant effect on population during the 50 years past since the birth control pill was invented. Despite what you think, most of the working-class in the western world is sober enough to know how to use contraceptives.

Peasant and working-class mothers (in western monogamous societies) have always had more children than upper-class mothers. Therefore, the labour movement was the strongest proponent for legalizing contraceptives and abortion. The difference is still there, but birth control has decreased it.

A majority of the world's doctors agree that birth control is one of the best things that happened mankind during the 20th century. There are many political and religious leaders with a different point of view. I would like Civ 4 to represent this controversy.

 

[Optimizer]

Anyway, most of Great People in our world were nothing since they discover something... Most of them were poor children with nothing except a BIG dream(flying, Creating Light, Going on the moon, etc) i'm thinking about Einstein too (don't have to say why) ... Nobody knew Einstein was Smart... But now we got all respect for him cause we know he was too smart for us.

I disagree. Most of the people we recognize as Great Scientists, Merchants, Prophets, Engineers and Artists would never have become Great People without proper education. And during most of history, education has been a luxury for middle or upper-class males. If a "natural born Einstein" had been the daughter of a shepherd in 19th century Arabia instead of the son of an entrepreneur in 19th century Germany, she would never have got the chance even to read a physics textbook, less to make a scientific career.

Contrary to common belief, Einstein's talent was well known even in early years - his school grades were excellent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

Great People are not from Great Family... most of the time it is natural born and there is nothing you can do about it... i think about Bush... He is not smart at all and he is suppose to be "some kind" of "Great People" and he is NOT!

I do not know what you would like to say with this example. No one has claimed that all the children of multi-millionaire families have extraordinary talents.

 

[Optimizer]

The Dine, or Navajo. operate under a matriarchal extended-clan system. The N'dee, or Apache (a Zuni word for enemy), also operate under a matriarchal system.

As far as I know, the N'dee (or whatever they want to call themselves) have never had any urban culture. With all due respect to their their traditions and way of life, representing a society like theirs in Civ 4 would be hard, since Civ 4 is a game centered around cities.

There are examples upon examples of matriarchal systems present on every continent and in every era.

Can you please provide links to documents on these systems? I have looked through Wikipedia, finding no illustrative examples.

 

[Perfect_Blue]

Matriarchal society is a topic in much debate. Like so many subjects, every scholar seems to bring their own definition to the discussion, and where one draws the line between matriarchal, gynarchal, matrilineal societies can be blurred. Also, it is obvious that many societies that held more egalitarian, or matriarchal views(differentiation depending on who's doing the research) have been historically marginalized for a number of reasons. But, regardless, there have been matriarchal societies in history, and there are still functioning matriarchal socieities today, and these societies have influenced, (matriarchy has influenced) the path of human history, and should (imho) be considered at least as seriously as patriachal society. Especially in the light of patriarchy being the point where the civic (where civilization, so to speak) begins. Another subject of some debate is the idea, hypothesis, or what have you, that matriachal society in fact predates partriarchal society. Not saying I hold that view particularly, but again it seems, to be fair, one should at least allow for that possibility as much as one allows for the possibility of patriachal pre-eminence.
Note that this sort of discussion seems to place matriarchy and patriarchy in a dichotomy, but again, there are many scholars now who would reject this type of analysis, citing that it can be seen as male-centric, and so on. But enough of that.

So, for a short list....

Mosuo
Khasi
Minangkabau
Nagovisi
Machinguenga
Minicoy

And on and on, jumping from hunter-gatherer type societies to agrarians and such from continent to continent. Depending on how one wished to define matriarchy, it could be said, as has been stated, that several Native American (North and South America) groups were matriarchies. There are more examples from different Pacific Islands, there are stories from the Aegean area of female societies, and so on.

So, to basically sum it up. Views of what constitute a matriarchy are many and highly varied, but there are general agreements about several historical examples of women playing at least as important a role in society as men. On that note, patriarchy as the base of all civilizations seems a bit dubious. Also, part of the fun of playing Civ is deciding how to customize your civilization. So, to be forced, as it were, to play a male-centric civilization at the outset of history and slowing gain equality, seems rather unfair. Many so-called 'great' civilizations have struggled with equality of the sexes, but there are many societies that have survived for a long time free of such strife, or at least having mostly conquered it in the past.

At least since there are no bonuses associated with patriarchy in this mod it might seem unimportant. But if one wishes to differentiate between matriarchy and patriarchy to begin with, one should perhaps in turn differentiate between types of polygamy? Male or female centric types; polyandry or.........hmmm, forgot the other at the moment. But, eh, I do not know.

Of course I do not really mean any of this as criticism of the mod, just trying to offer another point of view that I feel could be equally valid. And since I don't know a thing about any coding whatsoever, my only hope to see my own desires realized rests on the shoulders of those more knowledgable than I.

 

[Optimizer]

In the 'pedia file, I explain that the Polygamy civic specifically represents the custom for one man to have several wives (polygyny), and women live under slave-like conditions (which is usually the case in polygynic societies). Polyandry - where one woman can have several husbands - is rather uncommon in world history.

Representing all the gender role systems in world history with five gameplay options is hard, probably harder than representing all government systems in the same way. Which five abstracted systems should make the cut? I feel that the historical impact of both women's suffrage and birth control is to large to be neglected. Polygamy (in the form defined above) has also be so common in history that it "deserves" to be included. But I am not sure what to do with the remaining two slots (currently Patriarchy and Recognition). Some new suggestions, ranked by plausibility:

• Tribal Family
• Victorian Morality/Puritanism
• Matriarchy
• One Child Policy
• Radical Feminist Bureaucracy

Which would be your favorite, what historical society would be a good example, and what gameplay effect would it have?

 

[Falnax]

Victorian Family/Puritanism is a somewhat vague name, the puritans and the victorians had very different child rearing methods, I would reccomend, "Nuclear Family" which provides +1 trade routes per city from tourism and +25% great people, but causes -3 happiness in each city and has high upkeep. My recommendation for birth control is -6 health per city due to lack of fertility and STDs, but a +50% great person rate and +4 happiness, at medium upkeep.

 

[mayonaise]

other than the fact that i think matriarchal societies are few and far between, and had little real impact on world history... (ie. a few societies where women are in power or at least gained equality sure didnt change the worldwide standard where they did not, nor did it help the situation in SOME countries very recently) can you explain to me any worthwhile differences between a patriarchal society that could be represented in the mod? it seems to me a matriarchal and patriarchal society would function very similarly, just with a woman at the head instead of a man.

so its not only, you have to admit, exceedingly rare... its functionality in game would be the same. i see no reason at all to include it except to please overly sensitive people with a pet cause. if it really jars you that its not included go in and change patriarchy to matriarchy

 

[Perfect_Blue]

I don't know about 'pet cause,' but if one might give the subject serious thought, or perhaps try to broaden one's perspective on the issue through whatever means, other perspectives might gain a little light. There's plenty more that could be said, but it would, apparently, be as useful as watering rocks.

 

[stargatefan]

Didn't the Minoans who lived in ancient crete give equal rights to women... at least that's what I remember from history class..

 

[Silica_Pathways]

Optimizer, i see that i'm not able to change your thinking about birth control. But i'll try the last time Are u not upset about Europe dying out ? I know, that my country has one of the lowest birth rates in Europe. So i'm supporting every way to increase it, even banning abortions. But u still seem to be happy that white race in Europe is dying out. Are u yourself a real swede or some imigrant ? U just don't seem to care about your country. Imho, birth control was just one of many nails in Europe's coffin...

 

[Dennis_Moore]

About Birth Control as it is
The Great People birth rate does not represent how often Great Babies are delivered, but rather how often children reach adulthood with the right heredity and environment to be Great. And I believe that a society with birth control and equal opportunities will provide the environment to many more boys and girls than a patriarchal society where contraception is forbidden.

Well, I suppose you can say that there is a correllation between Birth control and Great people but not a causality. Birth control does not necessitate equal opportunities even though that is often the case. However, birth control could for examlpe also be present in a polygynous society where men keep a harem of women just for fun without having to support any offspring.

About the "Radical feminist beaurocracy"-suggestion (brr) that civic should definetly come with a huge science penalty. You being a Swede, I suppose I don't have to tell you about the general attitude towards natural science among radical feminists and the mockery they make of science in their own attempts at "research". Suffice to say, in this regard they're just as bad as the Right-wing Christians.

 

[Optimizer]

Crash757 - when you fear the extinction of "the white race" and claim that immigrants to Sweden cannot be "real" Swedes, you place yourself in very bad company. The debate whether genes for lack of pigment should be preserved is way off-topic, so let us concentrate on gameplay for now on.

 

[Optimizer]

Well, I suppose you can say that there is a correllation between Birth control and Great people but not a causality. Birth control does not necessitate equal opportunities even though that is often the case. However, birth control could for examlpe also be present in a polygynous society where men keep a harem of women just for fun without having to support any offspring.

I could separate (orthogonalize) birth control from equal suffrage and monogamy by using more civic categories. In that case, birth control would give no Great People bonus by itself. However - I want to keep this mod simple, by adding just one new civic category.

Here is my proposed description of Radical Feminist Bureaucracy (though I would not include it in a serious version of this mod):

Radical Feminist Bureaucracy (Communism): high upkeep, Universities and Jails give +3 happiness, -20% science, no foreign trade.
A Radical Feminist Bureaucracy is a "matriarchal dictatorship" inspired from Marxism. All public authorities are controlled by academics who have corrupted the strife for equality to stigmatize the male collective and use former sexual oppression as an excuse for authoritarian rule.

Government limits free speech - especially all kinds of sexual messages - to stop alleged sexism, and abridges legal rights in the witch-hunt of "men's violence against women". Like all societies, most sentenced criminals are men, but the Bureaucracy is the only one to use this as justification. Academic gender studies are reformed into authoritarian anti-male propaganda, taught as a mandatory subject on all levels. Achievements for equality are few, since these would destroy the ideologic base of the government. Both sexes are allowed to hold office, and through affirmative action the representation is mostly equal, but many governments have "separatist committees" where only women may participate.

It is not strange that Bureaucratic governments shun the ideals of patriarchy. However, they accuse all other systems to be patriarchal, even each other. Boycotts and protest actions make international cooperation difficult.

 

[SlipperyJim]

About Birth Control as it is
Population increase in a civilization with Birth Control is be slightly smaller, because the MilitaryFoodProduction flag, which converts the food surplus into production when military units are trained. (This bonus can be interpreted as emancipated women serving in armed forces and military contraction instead of raising more children.)

The Great People birth rate does not represent how often Great Babies are delivered, but rather how often children reach adulthood with the right heredity and environment to be Great. And I believe that a society with birth control and equal opportunities will provide the environment to many more boys and girls than a patriarchal society where contraception is forbidden.

At the risk of triggering a flamewar, you can't possibly know that. Firstly, widespread contraception is a relatively recent phenomenon. The "pill" made its debut less than 50 years ago:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_control_pills
Sure, there were contraceptive methods available before that, but they were unreliable, dangerous, or both.

(Not that the "pill" is perfect ... but that would really trigger a flamewar, so let's not go there.)

Any way you look at it, that's way too short a timespan to be making the sorts of claims that you make above. You may believe that birth control does all of those things, but you'll have a heck of a time proving any of it.

Secondly, you seem to have confused birth control with gender equality. While many people believe that contraception is required for gender equality, many other people disagree. A truly feminist society would be more inclined to support pregnancy and childbirth. This was the opinion of many of the early feminists, including Susan B. Anthony, Alice Paul, and Elizabeth Cady Stanton. For more details, see:
http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/index.htm

Thirdly, in your argument for increasing Great People, you also seem to have confused birth control with education, nutrition, and many of the other advantages of being born in the modern era. Even if it were possible to somehow stuff the genie back into its bottle (which it isn't), taking away birth control would not necessarily remove anyone's opportunity to become Great.

Fourthly, I'm not even convinced that the modern era has any significant advantages in Great People terms. Yeah, the average Joe (or Jane, if you prefer) in a developed country is more healthy these days, and that's worth something, but our actual education is sliding backwards. Have we really had more Great Artists, Great Engineers, or Great Anybodies than we had in the past? There are many advantages to modern civilization (the Internet, for example), and I'm not trying to knock it, but I just don't see these Great People all over the place....

About Birth Control more generally
As always, we have the dilemma between realism and strategic depth. Civ needs both to be Civ. (If you want plain realism, go watch the History Channel. If you want plain strategy, go play chess.)

Birth control should be represented when it comes to gender, and it should - like all civics - have effects balanced to be a good choice at some occasions and a bad choice otherwise.

One problem is that population increase has always been good in Civ. Though a new-born citizen will be tied up as unhappy (or as an entertainer in Civ 1-3) , they can be useful later. Therefore we have to provide some good and relevant advantages to Birth Control to offset the low population increase.

I like your quote about realism and strategy.

Your point about population increase is absolutely true. More people are always a good thing, especially when viewed in the long-term. This is one of those areas in which Civ has gotten it exactly correct.