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The Gender Mod

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Mod Components' started by Optimizer, Jan 8, 2006.

  1. Optimizer

    Optimizer Sthlm, SWE

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    In the Gender mod, the Birth Control civic is an abstraction which does not only represent birth control. It represents all the properties of Equal Suffrage (which is not only equal suffrage, but also equal opportunities to education and property) as well as nursery schools, gay rights, fetal diagnostics and several other social, political and medical breakthroughs in the 20th centuries.

    Maybe I should rename it to Liberal Family Values or something?
     
  2. SlipperyJim

    SlipperyJim Prince

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    Fair point. Again, avoiding the temptation to launch a flamewar, I'll steer clear of the politics. :p Fortunately, your mod suggests several alternative names that would be more thematic with the gender concept:
    • True Gender Equality
    • Gender-Blind Society
    • Androgyny
    Or whatever ... but I would stick with something "gender-specific". Otherwise, just rename your mod to "Liberal Mod" and go with that.... ;)
     
  3. Optimizer

    Optimizer Sthlm, SWE

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    I chose to call it "Sexual Freedom". Now we can have a literary Sexual Revolution (though I have not linked it to Rock'n'roll yet).
     
  4. Crash757

    Crash757 King

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    Much better :) ;)
     
  5. SlipperyJim

    SlipperyJim Prince

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    Peachy. :goodjob:

    It's ironic that most civs will experience one or more years of anarchy during the Sexual Revolution, but Spiritual civs will not.... :D
     
  6. Optimizer

    Optimizer Sthlm, SWE

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    Maybe Sexual Freedom can gain some happiness bonus with Broadcast Towers to represent rock'n'roll.

    Please give more suggestions about pre-modern gender options!
     
  7. Yooka

    Yooka Chieftain

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    I wouldn't worry about linking it to Rock and Roll, just as long as they are at similar points in tech progression/discovery.

    I think you've done a really good job conceptually. The renaming to Sexual Freedom was a great step, and I think you should keep the five civics as they are. Maybe a slightly different name for Recognition, so that it isn't as vague - maybe if there is a particular concept or issue that reflects the pre-modern acceptance of women as "equal" or perhaps just "useful". But I wouldn't ditch Recognition for any of the other possible ideas, just not as significant.

    Once I'm good enough in basic Civ, I will definitely give this a try. And to think, I came into this thread thinking I would mock it. :)

    EDIT: Just realized my new sig is funnier in the content of this topic.
     
  8. Yooka

    Yooka Chieftain

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    Now that I thknk about it, I would lower Polygamy to a low upkeep (compared to the other few high upkeeps), and have Sufferage give a few hammers and commerce instead of great people (to signify women entering in the workplace). Maybe the hammers carry over to Sexual Freedom?

    Not sure about the reasoning behind military units produced with food.

    PRESIDENT: We need another infantry division. Oh, and can I have some fries with that?
     
  9. AnarhCassius

    AnarhCassius Chieftain

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    Patriarchy: default civic, no upkeep, no effects

    I can see having this as the default for "civilized" cultures but matriarchy should be an alternative avalible early on. I am more interested in playing history through my own way that repreating the exact same gender strugles that happened in western civilization.

    Polygamy: requires Agriculture, high upkeep, +20% food

    I see the concept but I understand the issue with this being a food bonus as opposed to a more direct and realistic representation of the increased growth rate. Also I disagree with calling it polygamy, polygamy can mean any form of marriage including more than two partners. Call it polygyny since that is specfically multiple wives and what you are going for here. I agree that polynadry isn't nessicary not so much because of its historical rarity but because it doesn't have the same signifigant social effects that polygyny does.

    Recognition: requires Code of Laws, no upkeep, +10% food, +25% Great People

    Again I dislike civilizations' general focus on the progression western civilization took and it's general newer and more democratic is better, totally ignoring the many variations history has taken and mariginalizing early democratic societies. Civ4 has moved away from this a bit but it needs to go further. Instead of using greater and varied forms of women's suffrage just leave Partiarchy as the default with Polygyny an early option. Ditch recogonition in favor of Matriarchy, 2 male dominated vs 1 female dominated early gender civics give us a historical slant while keeping options open.

    Equal Suffrage: requires Liberalism, no upkeep, +100% Great People

    Not sure about the bonus here but one civic for modern western democractic style suffrage is good.

    Sexual Freedom: requires Medicine, medium upkeep, +100% Great People, +3 happiness with Hospital, military units produced with food

    I don't think we need a sexual freedom civic, I would rather see a Birth Control civic that represented not merely the avalibility of contraception but a restricticted birth policy like One Child per Family.
     
  10. Optimizer

    Optimizer Sthlm, SWE

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    I am trying to balance the civics, so that the AI uses them all. Polygamy (or Polygyny - a more correct, but less understandable term) needs the high upkeep to offset the food bonus. As I said before, it represent the cost of not utilizing womens' intellectual capacity.

    I have tried to find reliable documents on historical matriarchies. The idea of these has been popular within the social sciences at least since the 19th century. The search seems to have been in vain. There is no evidence for a "matriarchy" (defined as a society ruled by women in the same way men historically ruled most agricultural societies in world history) ever to have be existed. History has some examples of matrilinear (kinship inherited from mother) and matrilocal (home inherited from mother's family) societies, but none where women really rule.

    If this was an add-on to a fantasy or science fiction game, I would have included Matriarchy. But I want all separate components of Civ 4 to represent documented events in the history of civilization.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Matriarchal_Prehistory
     
  11. Taelis

    Taelis Warlord

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    I haven't tried it, but I really like the idea of this mod. As AnarhCassius pointed out, though, it would be nice to have a more restrictive modern civic to go along with equal sufferage/sexual freedom. Something like One Child Policy or "State Control". You could combine equal sufferage and sexual freedom into a single civic.

    For gameplay, that would add another totalitarian civic to go with police state and state property, and could have similar (military and production) benefits, while sexual freedom could give happiness and great people.

    For realism - while I'm not an expert on the subject, and it may be a Western bias coloring my perceptions - don't most nations that grant equal rights to women also have something like "sexual freedom"?

    Both sexual freedom and state control of the family depend on the existence of birth control; it's interesting how these polar opposite policies both became possible because of a single technology.
     
  12. akr71

    akr71 Chieftain

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    Everything I've read about ancient mediterannean history and archiology says so. The Minoans were a matriarchy who built a vast trading empire in Crete and the Agean Islands prior to the rise of the Greek city states.

    However, I have no idea what the advantages or disadvantages of a Matriarchy system might be, so it's rather a moot point...
     
  13. Optimizer

    Optimizer Sthlm, SWE

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    The archaeological findings from the Minoans suggest that women had generally more power than men, but we know to little of the Minoans to tell about their political system.

    I am not so keen about adding another late-game civic - the player should have several options during most of the game.
     
  14. AnarhCassius

    AnarhCassius Chieftain

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    So I've been playing with the Gender civic in my mod and here is what I have right now. First a few things to bear in mind. I am using religeous options in some of the early gender civic, I like the idea of two catagories affecting religeon and gender is not a bad secondary choice. Optimizer, you mentioned wanting to emphasize religeous struggles and this approximates this somewhat as religeons loose some power as you switch over to modern gender civics. I also like these bonuses because I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to say religeon enforces gender roles. So here is what I have right now...

    Patriarchy - Default Civic - Lowest Cost (I changed all the default Civics to half of Low cost so they are more attractive. It also offsets the costs of having a 6th catagory)
    No effects

    No real changes here, I think it makes sense for the default

    Matriarchy - Pottery - Low Cost
    +2 Health
    +10% Building Production in City's with State Religeon

    Less happy here, there isn't much to go on for matriarchy but I definettely think it should be included. I could easily swap the health bonus for something else but I kinda like the Religeon effect. Pottery also isn't a great discovery tech but Agriculture is a start tech which I don't like and nothing else quite works.

    Polygyny - Monarchy - High Cost
    +100% Cottage, etc. Growth
    +25% Unit Production with State Religeon

    Monarchy is little late but I think it's appropriate, this is a powerful Civic. So the Growth bonus just seemed nessicary and appropriate and the Unit production is nice because it not only helps with military but I am pretty sure should also affect Settlers and Workers, thus helping your overall Growth. Overall these make Polygyny worth its High Cost and I wanted atleast one High Cost civic for Gender. Aside from the lateness of Monarchy I love how this one came out.

    Equal Rights - Democracy - Medium Cost
    +50% Great People rate
    :( Penalty for Civs without Equal Rights
    +3 Happiness with Hospital

    Another favorite of mine. Like I said before I don't think we need this and Sexual Freedom so I stole the Hospital bonus from Birth Control and applied it here. Equal Rights are good in and of themself but once contraception and anti-STD pharmaceuticals are avalible you get the full benefits of that sexual freedom. Making one civic for this also let me use the happiness penalty, I felt it's appropriate here, this is the only gender civic I have that grants all citizens total control of their sexual identity. I have too much fun causing unrest in my unenlightened neighbors.

    Birth Control - Medicine - Medium Cost
    Unlimited Engineer and Scientist
    Produce Military Units with Population

    Here Birth Control means state Birth Control, the society dictates who reproduces, when and how to control its population levels. Its a hard effect to represent in game so here it basicaly takes the form of giving you population control options as a player. Militart Units are produced faster at the cost of city growth (great idea Optimizer) and Engineers and Scientists don't produce food while still helping your cities. It may piss of citizens used to more freedom but you can find ways to manage that unrest.


    Finally I am going to have 6 civics in 6 catagories in the mod I am making so I do want another gender civic, I probably will bring back something like Recongnition since I don't have a "somewhat equal" early civic avalible and that really seems to call out as what is missing from my set up.
     
  15. gianluca790

    gianluca790 Chieftain

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    I do not know what you would like to say with this example. No one has claimed that all the children of multi-millionaire families have extraordinary talents.[/QUOTE]

    Wealthier families can afford the best education, which automatically allows for control of the upper echelons of society by a select few members of the wealthiest families, a mathematical formula I would like to call the George Bush Constant, the idea that large wealth and a network of familyfriendships/business connections can lead to a higher success rate in society than higher intelligence, unless the individual with higher intelligence is extremely lucky and driven by ambition to succeed in his chosen field.
     
  16. Rabbit_Alex

    Rabbit_Alex Prince

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    That number is accurate for most of Europe and Japan and Australia(?), but the United States fertility rate is still the highest in the industrialized world at 2.1 children per woman.
     
  17. dh_epic

    dh_epic Cold War Veteran

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    This is a pretty cool idea for a mod, and an important part of history. Good job for attempting to address it.
     
  18. Bastian-Bux

    Bastian-Bux King

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_fertility_rate

    Now if we ignore Israel, yes the United States is the country with the highest fertility rate out of the "developed countries".

    Now what would be interessting would be to find out which ethnicity in the USA did have the most children, and how this correlates with gender issues. Or am I mistaken to assume that the USA is much more heterogenous in this question then most european countries?

    One reason for the high fertility rate of the USA is teenage pregnancies:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_pregnancy

    So maybe its wrong to reason: "the USA is having high birth rates, so its possible to have birth controll and high birthrates". Maybe its better to say: "the USA citizen while technically having access to contraceptives, are not using them like citizens from other developed countries (religious or whatever reasons), so they should not assumed to have this civic"
     
  19. Leif

    Leif Prince

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    My only complaint about the mod is there is only one clear choice. While complete gender equality is far preferable to the opinions on sexism a caveman would provide us, there is only one choice for gameplay. As messed up as it is to think about, have each (except the starting one) have gameplay value.
     
  20. dh_epic

    dh_epic Cold War Veteran

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    Sex naturally sparks a lot of contraversy. But I'm with Leif. For the sake of the mod, each civic ought to have its own niche, with its own value. It's understandable if the later civics are more powerful than the earlier civics -- but then you should avoid designs that turn the column into a mere progress report.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that most of the action in Civilization takes place before the industrial era. Hence, holding off on too many civics tends to limit choice AND impact. Note that there's only one civic column that kicks in later -- the economics column.
     

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