The ideal Communist society?

[Richard Cribb]

Yes I think you are right. This thread was never intended to be a serious discussion just phoney debate where commie bashers get to pretend they have proven that their indoctrication is the best after all...

I find that to be a very accurate description.
Now it is a common phenomena on this board to find this sort of things, only the other day somebody in full earnest recommended that shoddy tract of Courtois The Black Book of communism while I can also recall that once somebody even posted a paper demonstrating how much he had read and how little he had understood.
But on a board dominated by young middleclass males, one gets used to that sort of thing.
On this particular thread this is especially ironic;

The only way communism could work, is if everyone was thoroughly brainwashed, and/or on some serious brain-shutting-down medication. Then, yeah... then you could have your communist society. A bunch of zombies. Sounds great. What a wonderful ideology.

Considering that:
- People is every day shelled with massive propaganda from a host of powerful media outlest. Does one need any more brainwashing? Obviously not.
- The farmaceutical industry is doing great, providing a whole range of drugs which helps people coping to live in societies where profit are the god, and selfishness, ruthlessness and private idiocy the virtues.

As for human nature, an elemantary course in history might be helpful to provide a wider perspective on that topic.

 

[Lotus49]

I am not 'one of the usual suspects'. If you can't even get that right, then I won't even bother responding directly.

Here's the fundamental problem with communism, whether 'capitalist societies exist' or not. Regardless of anything. First of all, communism is all about control. Everything is controlled... the economy, production, consumption, growth, what you're going to have & achieve, what you're NOT going to have or achieve, who you're going to be, etc. But above all else, you are essentially controlled. You are plainly and obviously limited, as to what's going to happen in your life, and how far you can go.

Imagine growing up, but staying in kindergarten your whole life. All day, every day, you are babied, your whole day is planned out by someone else, you aren't going to GET anything or DO anything, unless they 'provide' it to you, your job is to simply 'stay in line', and mindlessly live out your life, being controlled like a little child 'til the end of your days. The whole 'independence' stage of life... never arrives.

Maybe it's just me, because I've tasted it - but having been able to go my own way, being self-reliant, and winding up where ever I manage to place myself... going back to the follow-the-leader, "Yes, Ms. So-and-so", kindergarten control lifestyle, would be pure Hell.

Basically, I'm saying people that flock to communism are like kids, that haven't grown up. That's exactly what I'm saying. No reasonable, intelligent adult in his prime wants to be controlled... like a child, or, an elderly person that has lost their independence. And under communism, that's exactly what you'd be... from kindergarten, to nursing home (and everything in between) you'd just be 'part of the system'.

I call that inferior, to the society the rest of the world has developed. And I also say, it's something anybody reasonable, would inevitably seek to break out of.

You simply cannot 'manage' a 'perfect society'. Many kings and emperors have tried, for thousands of years. They've all fallen by the wayside. Only human nature remains... driving onwards. For better or for worse, it is what it is.... and it is more powerful than most people realize, and it cannot be contained by some kind of 'system'.

Some people never grow up - and that's fine. But for the rest of us, the whole control and limitations thing... ain't gonna fly. My human nature / survival instinct tells me I should have more... by God I'm gonna go for it. Now what are you gonna do? Send me to Siberia?

That's what they did to my ancestors. That's why we're not there anymore.


edit/spelling/1 word

 

[Richard Cribb]

I am not 'one of the usual suspects'. If you can't even get that right, then I won't even bother responding directly.

You sound just like one, and I couldn't care less about what you bother with or not.

Here's the fundamental problem with communism, whether 'capitalist societies exist' or not. Regardless of anything. First of all, communism is all about control. Everything is controlled... the economy, production, consumption, growth, what you're going to have & achieve, what you're NOT going to have or achieve, who you're going to be, etc. But above all else, you are essentially controlled. You are plainly and obviously limited, as to what's going to happen in your life, and how far you can go.

Dear young man, you got it all backwards. It is hierarchic societies like the capitalist one that is about control.

Imagine growing up, but staying in kindergarten your whole life. All day, every day, you are babied, your whole day is planned out by someone else, you aren't going to GET anything or DO anything, unless they 'provide' it to you, your job is to simply 'stay in line', and mindlessly live out your life, being controlled like a little child 'til the end of your days. The whole 'independence' stage of life... never arrives.

What you describe sounds pretty much like the kind of life many are living today.Lots of people have to carry of menial tasks to others benefit to stay alive.

Maybe it's just me, because I've tasted it - but having been able to go my own way, being self-reliant, and winding up where ever I manage to place myself... going back to the follow-the-leader, "Yes, Ms. So-and-so", kindergarten control lifestyle, would be pure Hell.

Why is it that you fanboys of status quo always love to preach about great you are? Some complex?
I have done mine in life also, but I have no need to trumpet it loudly. Others have been less lucky than me due to various reasons, common decency then demands I give them a hand. Comparing that to kindergarten mentality is just immature and callous.

Basically, I'm saying people that flock to communism are like kids, that haven't grown up.

Basically, I think you have no idea about what you are ranting about. Actually I think it is the self-centered, greedy narcissist who seems to find it such a strain to think about anything except me, myself, and I that has much bigger problems with growing up.

No reasonable, intelligent adult in his prime wants to be controlled... like a child, or, an elderly person that has lost their independence. And under communism, that's exactly what you'd be... from kindergarten, to nursing home (and everything in between) you'd just be 'part of the system'.

So you think that people under the current system are not controlled? You are really something.
And yet again you demonstrate a total ignorance about what a communist society is. So to state the obvious, since I can see miles away what you are trying on; Stalinist societies are not communist. I hate to break that to you, but it is nevertheless true.

You simply cannot 'manage' a 'perfect society'. Many kings and emperors have tried, for thousands of years. They've all fallen by the wayside.

This may be hard to get, but "I" am not going to manage anything. People are, or more correctly associations of free people. Is it really that hard to think in non-hierarchic terms?

Only human nature remains... driving onwards. For better or for worse, it is what it is.... and it is more powerful than most people realize, and it cannot be contained by some kind of 'system'.

OK, professor, here is your big opportunity to shine. Exactly what is human nature? Could it be related to the political, social, economical and cultural environment in which we are living somehow. And if not, why is that so?

Some people never grow up - and that's fine.

That is something I notice, unfortunately.

But for the rest of us, the whole control and limitations thing... ain't gonna fly. My human nature / survival instinct tells me I should have more... by God I'm gonna go for it. Now what are you gonna do? Send me to Siberia?

Indeed some people never grow up - and that's not always fine.
You can save that sort of cheap propaganda to those who care. I think nobody here endorsed neither the Czar regime or the USSR of Stalin. If it is too demanding for you to take the responsibility of a grown-up and contribute a bit to the community to the best of your abilities, then you are free to leave.

That's what they did to my ancestors. That's why we're not there anymore.

Is that supposed to be an argument?

Section I in the Anarchist FAQ in my sig deals with how a true communist society might look like. Feel free to check out the horrors of self-government.

 

[Lotus49]

My point was simply that the planned system is going to expect me to fit in a certain place, live a certain life, and receive a certain amount of compensation / quality of life. That's control, like it or not. I live in a free market capitalist society, I could literally do anything I want, that falls within my (ever-expanding) budget... but that encompasses lots of things (you name it, within reason - I can do it - barring anything that costs millions of dollars, I can change/live my life any way I want). But anyway, the point was that inevitably people are going to seek to be independent, go their own way, and strive to reach their full potential - and be appropriately rewarded for it.

Either that, or settle for "indoctrination". Maybe the latter floats your boat. To each his own. But I know what communism is - quit telling me I don't. These scenarios I'm describing are the best REAL examples of communism, put into action. That, and the best examples I can IMAGINE actually materializing, in the real world. Your Fanstasy Land, is exactly that. I'm not discussing that, because it's fiction. So again, I'm telling you (quickly, because I have to go) why this could never work - people will not accept it. They'll eventually seek to break out of it (or break IT down), like we have seen happen in the USSR, or like China, the gov't will be FORCED to bend towards capitalism, or face being toppled by the people.

That's all happened, in the real world. Now, you tell me where it has EVER succeeded. Not in your MIND, or Karl Marx's for that matter... but in reality. It's been tried numerous times. Where is the Utopia?

Oh, wait... there she is... trying as hard as she can to get me to BUY her as my wife, on some website. Sing to the Motherland.

 

[zenspiderz]

luceafarul whipping indoctrinated capitalist stoolies into check!! I like.

Bottom line communism in all its various forms from statist to anarchist aims for a society where science and industry serves the wellbeing of all humankind rather than the capitalist/aristocratic scheme where human kind serves industry and science for the benefit of an overclass of owners and govenors.

communism is about mutual aid and shared ownership it is NOT about exploitation and economic monopoly that is the concern of capitalism/aristocracy however they disguise.

I prefer anarcho-syndicalism to the statist communism such as we see with the PRC, DPRK, Castros Cuba etc. However statist communism is a valid attempt at bringing society closer to true communism (which I define as anarcho-syndicalism) and defending that attempt from the machinations of the economic monopolists.

If the real producers of wealth which are the working classes desire to throw off the parasitic aristocratic/capitalist overclass and own the industry they work they not behaving like children but as adults that seek mastery over their own life and work.

 

[JerichoHill]

The real producers of wealth are not the working classes. Ideas produce more money than physical labor.

Again, no one will do more work and receive equal pay. Inequality is something that man has rebelled against since day 1

 

[C~G]

I do love and support communism as much I love and support Shangri-La.

It's same as visiting bordel day by day basis and expect to encounter a virgin every time you check in.

Give it a rest already.

 

[zenspiderz]

The real producers of wealth are not the working classes. Ideas produce more money than physical labor.

Again, no one will do more work and receive equal pay. Inequality is something that man has rebelled against since day 1

Ideas are produced by people regardless of their status in the power pyramid. However the further down the pile you are the less enabled you are to develop those ideas. Hence the frustration of those under capitalist tyranny. Communism aims for a society where there is not a class of owners and a class of servants and slaves but a classless society where the inate talent and efforts of ALL people is allowed to develop.

Wealth is not money. Money is just a token of exchange. But it has become a trick to allow an overclass to have domination over an underclass.

Real wealth is knowledge, compassion, virtuous effort and craft.

 

[Richard Cribb]

My point was simply that the planned system is going to expect me to fit in a certain place, live a certain life, and receive a certain amount of compensation / quality of life. That's control, like it or not. I live in a free market capitalist society, I could literally do anything I want, that falls within my (ever-expanding) budget... but that encompasses lots of things (you name it, within reason - I can do it - barring anything that costs millions of dollars, I can change/live my life any way I want). But anyway, the point was that inevitably people are going to seek to be independent, go their own way, and strive to reach their full potential - and be appropriately rewarded for it.

You simply don't get it, do you?
Breaking news: the whole goddamn world does not evolve around you. I don't know you. For all I know you might be such a big shot as you are striving hard to tell us. But in the real world most people are not so free to chose, in societies of privileges and hierarchies, for a number of reasons.
Any imaginable society in history has been good for certain of its citizens. The trick is to get out of the bubble and see how the other lives.

Either that, or settle for "indoctrination". Maybe the latter floats your boat. To each his own.

I think you are the one spouting out slogans around here.

But I know what communism is - quit telling me I don't.

Obviously you don't. You seem to be unaware of the fact that a communist society is by definition a state- and classless one.

These scenarios I'm describing are the best REAL examples of communism, put into action.

Not so. State capitalism is a better description.Or to be generous, socialist. That was the term those societies used about themselves.

That, and the best examples I can IMAGINE actually materializing, in the real world.

What you can imagine and what is possible is obviously two different things.

Your Fanstasy Land, is exactly that. I'm not discussing that, because it's fiction. So again, I'm telling you (quickly, because I have to go) why this could never work - people will not accept it.

First of all, some hundred years ago, your beloved capitalism (and its notion of what human nature is) would have been dismissed in pretty much the same way.
Things change. This is called progress. The paramount of wisdom is not necessarily to be exactly one hour ahead of your time.Or to drive your car with the brakes on.
And it is a bit weird that such a devouted freedom lover should be so cathegoric about what people a priori would accept or not.

They'll eventually seek to break out of it (or break IT down), like we have seen happen in the USSR, or like China, the gov't will be FORCED to bend towards capitalism, or face being toppled by the people.

OK, for the last time, and read this carefully. This is not about the USSR. This is not about introducing Stalinism. This is not about Russia in 1917.

That's all happened, in the real world. Now, you tell me where it has EVER succeeded. Not in your MIND, or Karl Marx's for that matter... but in reality. It's been tried numerous times. Where is the Utopia?

Calm down, there is no need to use capital letters. Admittedly I am short-sighted, but I have some wonderful glasses, bought in a former "communist" country.
A classless society has not been realized - yet. But it would be extremely dubious to assume that that is the same as to say that it would never succeed. Societal changes takes time. How long did Feudalism rule supreme? There were times when universal suffrage was considered impossible. Likewise the abolition of slavery.
And how long did common people have to struggle for their political, social and economical rights, and still that struggle continues. It is a big world, after all, and the true face of capitalism can't be found at the US middle class (or the Norwegian one for that matter).I am not a revolutionary, I believe more in a permanent evolution. And I think I see, as a tendency in history, a development towards more equality. There is the occasional setback, as the recent past, but I think the direction goes the right way anyway.After all, Rome wasn't destroyed in one day...

So sorry, but there is no Utopia. What there is however is a vision about a society without inequality and exploitation. Whether such a society will ever exist is not given to any of us to answer. Personally I regard that as possible. But I might be wrong. But working towards it is anyway a good thing, as far as I can see.

Oh, wait... there she is... trying as hard as she can to get me to BUY her as my wife, on some website. Sing to the Motherland.

I rest my case.
Such sense of "humour" speaks volumes.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Yes I think you are right. This thread was never intended to be a serious discussion just phoney debate where commie bashers get to pretend they have proven that their indoctrication is the best after all...

I bash Communists, not the idea. There is no 'other' reason for me starting this thread, I wanted to see if we could create a communist society that works, and not one that pretends to be communist.

As I said, I figured that even if we didn't, we've put the ideas out there, and there's surely some things that will work. And if there isn't, it's still fun to try and think up ways that will work.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

My point was simply that the planned system is going to expect me to fit in a certain place, live a certain life, and receive a certain amount of compensation / quality of life. That's control, like it or not. I live in a free market capitalist society, I could literally do anything I want, that falls within my (ever-expanding) budget... but that encompasses lots of things (you name it, within reason - I can do it - barring anything that costs millions of dollars, I can change/live my life any way I want). But anyway, the point was that inevitably people are going to seek to be independent, go their own way, and strive to reach their full potential - and be appropriately rewarded for it.

Either that, or settle for "indoctrination". Maybe the latter floats your boat. To each his own. But I know what communism is - quit telling me I don't. These scenarios I'm describing are the best REAL examples of communism, put into action. That, and the best examples I can IMAGINE actually materializing, in the real world. Your Fanstasy Land, is exactly that. I'm not discussing that, because it's fiction. So again, I'm telling you (quickly, because I have to go) why this could never work - people will not accept it. They'll eventually seek to break out of it (or break IT down), like we have seen happen in the USSR, or like China, the gov't will be FORCED to bend towards capitalism, or face being toppled by the people.

That's all happened, in the real world. Now, you tell me where it has EVER succeeded. Not in your MIND, or Karl Marx's for that matter... but in reality. It's been tried numerous times. Where is the Utopia?

Oh, wait... there she is... trying as hard as she can to get me to BUY her as my wife, on some website. Sing to the Motherland.

I will counter simply that no one has ever tried to get full true 100% communism to work. Lenin was perhaps the man who could have, but he died before his work was finished. But even Lenin did not have true communism to work with, his NEP was most definitely capitalism, needed to kickstart Soviet industry and economy, the idea being to switch back gradually into an increasingly communist society, once the Soviet Union could afford to stand alone once it adoped the isolationist stance it would need for such a program to wkr (we've discovered this in this very thread, the need to cut out the rest of the world from a communist society).

However, I think realistically Trotsky had the idea most likely to be successful. Lenin and Stalin were intent on making Communism work in Russia before spreading it to the rest of the world. Trotsky wanted to get global uprisings to occur, and get the whole world going Red. Given the events and attitude of people at this point in history, I have little doubt that, had they really wanted to, they could have installed Communist regimes in many of the major countries of the world. Surely, the more of the world you have in the Communist sphere and idelology, the easier it will be to create a more perfect communist society.

 

[Richard Cribb]

luceafarul whipping indoctrinated capitalist stoolies into check!! I like.

Thanks. I need to lend a hand to a fellow anarcho-syndicalist, you know.

Bottom line communism in all its various forms from statist to anarchist aims for a society where science and industry serves the wellbeing of all humankind rather than the capitalist/aristocratic scheme where human kind serves industry and science for the benefit of an overclass of owners and govenors.

communism is about mutual aid and shared ownership it is NOT about exploitation and economic monopoly that is the concern of capitalism/aristocracy however they disguise.

I prefer anarcho-syndicalism to the statist communism such as we see with the PRC, DPRK, Castros Cuba etc. However statist communism is a valid attempt at bringing society closer to true communism (which I define as anarcho-syndicalism) and defending that attempt from the machinations of the economic monopolists.

If the real producers of wealth which are the working classes desire to throw off the parasitic aristocratic/capitalist overclass and own the industry they work they not behaving like children but as adults that seek mastery over their own life and work.

That is what I call a great post.

 

[Richard Cribb]

The real producers of wealth are not the working classes. Ideas produce more money than physical labor.

In that case, let the working classes just lay down their hands and stop working. Let us then see how the ideas will feed and shelter JerichoHill and his ilk.

Again, no one will do more work and receive equal pay. Inequality is something that man has rebelled against since day 1

Tell me with a straight face that amount of work equals material reward in todays' society.

 

[Fugitive Sisyphus]

Don't want to re-type. Read here :
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4598050&postcount=50
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4598136&postcount=58
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4598136&postcount=64

This was your post I was replying to:

Sparta worked well for centuries.... didn't appear to be a bunch of zombies... rather the best organised and most true to traditions society in Greece.

When I think of the exploits Classical Greece I think of the flowering of art, architecture, science, and philosophy that occured in the Greek city states. However, Sparta is not known for these things because the Spartans thought that their superior military would ensure their survival forever and as a result neglected other areas (this was the trap the Soviet Union fell into). I do not dispute that they were the best organized or most true to the traditions fo Greece as long as you are refering to the culture and traditions of the Greek Dark Age.

Physical work yes it was odne by the slaves. Slavery aside Sparta could be considered the best example of a Communist state so far. If you want I will go into detail.

If Sparta is the best example of a Communist state so far, it merely shows how horrible communism is.

In Sparta, the state...
decides whether a newborn will live of die
decides that you will be a warrior
forbids you from trading or manufacturing products
decides how much land you will own
decides pretty much everything


About slavery. Without slavery the Spartan State as we know it could not exist. Since the Spartans only role was to fight, they needed slaves to do everything else needed to support their civilization. Put simpy, without slaves, the Spartans would have starved to death. This sounds much like how the Soviet Union decided where millions of its people would work. I guess this does show that Sparta is better since this caused famines when tried in the Soviet Union.

 

[JerichoHill]

And then let's take away all the ideas

Like motor vehicles, television, power, writing, the alphabet, <insert any civ-tech here>

ideas change society,and are more powerful than a sword OR a plowshare

 

[zenspiderz]

Thanks. I need to lend a hand to a fellow anarcho-syndicalist, you know.

Mutual Aid in action!

That is what I call a great post.

Thanks..

 

[REDY]

The only place communism could work is very small and isolated country within any contact of capitalist states.

 

[zenspiderz]

The only place communism could work is very small and isolated country within any contact of capitalist states.

Would you care to expand on that statement? Provide some logical, experimental, historical, rhetorical and/or experiential justification for your comment please.

 

[REDY]

Would you care to expand on that statement? Provide some logical, experimental, historical, rhetorical and/or experiential justification for your comment please.

Hmm you want something what I cant make with my language abilities. But I will try to extend it.

My first theisis is that people have to organize very effictevely. And its realy easier divide work into 500 people than 100 000 000. When you will know "leading" people personally, it will be also more controled.

My second thesis is that in small group its harder live in ambitious way. You simply cant do nothing within somebody and solidarity is needed for good working communism.

My third thesis is that organized work is less effective than capitalism. So what will happen when communist and capitalist countries are side-by-side? Logicly people, who may acquire more wealth than they cant get in "communist society", have tenses to move to kapitalist one. But these people who may succes in capitalism are most ambitious and courageous so they could helped communist society work. Of course when other communists will see immigrating these people, they will close boarders what is first step to police state...

Where communism realy worked? Hmm maybe you heard something about Israeli Kibbutzes. It shows in which way may communism work. But its question if I dont talking about more likely something as Anarcho-communism.

 

[Underseer]

If you actually read Karl Marx, the ideal Communist society is a super-libertarian society so extreme that it borders on anarchy. That's precisely why it's unworkable.