[RD] The Israel/Palestine Quarantine Thread

[Snowygerry]

In that situation Israel probably ceases to exist. (...) Son asked me a question about Palestines future in 2018 or so. Double checked with dad to see if it was ok to answer said he won't like the answer. Short version is make NZ your home Palestine is gone and things are gonna get worse over there due to climate change if nothing else.

Sensible answer

But that's not quite how things work in that part of the world, Israel was "gone" - it was gone for centuries, but then it came back...

The full history of the "Holy land" isn't written yet imho.

 

[Zardnaar]

Sensible answer

But that's not quite how things work in that part of the world, Israel was "gone" - it was gone for centuries, but then it came back...

The full history of the "Holy land" isn't written yet imho.

Israel might fall but there won't be much left behind due to nukes.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I disagree. Their influence is minor, but non-zero.

Well in so much as the Zionists seem to be able to influence UK elections with the spurious claims that Jeremy Corbyn's
labour party was anti-Semitic, perhaps the UK's influence re Israel is not so much zero, but less than zero, i.e. being negative.

 

[Traitorfish]

But that's not quite how things work in that part of the world, Israel was "gone" - it was gone for centuries, but then it came back...

There's really no continuity between the Hasmonean kingdom of Israel and the modern State of Israel except in the imagination of Israeli ultranationalists.

 

[Lexicus]

It is not Hamas' actions that are held to any higher standards in the west, but it is the damage to Israel that can be taken more seriously among western society.
This is my guese, as I probably don't consume as much western (non-Israeli) media as the rest of you do.

I have a rather less charitable interpretation than you do, but it is no different than the US treating fewer than 3,000 deaths on 9/11 as far more serious than hundreds of thousands of deaths from subsequent US military actions. The hegemon's citizens, and the citizens of its vassals allies are important; those in the periphery, or, worse, who have the misfortune to live under governments the hegemon decides are enemies? They are as important as so many ants or rats.

 

[Traitorfish]

The hegemon's citizens, and the citizens of its vassals allies are important;

Given the handling of Covid by both hegemon and vassals, this point appears to be pretty negotiable.

 

[Lexicus]

Given the handling of Covid by both hegemon and vassals, this point appears to be pretty negotiable.

True enough. My point was more about appearances than anything else, anyway. Deaths from turrism can be very easily put to political uses that benefit the oligarchy; it's rather harder to do that with the deaths from covid. And it's not like the military responses to terrorism have been particularly effective at preventing terrorism anyway.

 

[Absolution]

There's really no continuity between the Hasmonean kingdom of Israel and the modern State of Israel except in the imagination of Israeli ultranationalists.

Nah, pretty much in the imagination of most Zionists. And all religious Jews at all, from Brooklyn to Iran.

In terms of bourgeoning national movements, you can grant nothing a better credit than to the imagination of the public.
It's nice and good. After all, we don't play here for absolute justice in front of a judge in the skies - We just go for what the people want and dream of. And that is - a Jewish nationhood in Zion.
Anyway, I'm not sure any Venetian and a Sicilian of the 18th centruy could see much sense in a future idea of a pan-Italian nation that includes them both. Jews could, at any given time.

For this same reason I don't go all out against the use of the term Palestinians in some cases. Every group of people has the right to call themselves whatever they like, and to want whatever they wish.
But beside this, you may still want to determind which are nations or peoples in historical terms.
So let's do it:
Throughout the centuries, Jews lacked demographic concentration and possibly genetic lineages - which are both relevant factors.
But they shared a national spirit (in the sense of a glorified past and a hope for a rebuilding of Zion in the future), religion and traditional customs, to some extent a language (which is now fully revived) or several exclusive diaspora languages, and also their designation or exonym.
Several decent factors, I'd say, for around 1900 years of diaspora - to help Jews go ahead of many other continuously existing nations if we want to compare.

 

[Snowygerry]

I wonder how many Jews were given the same, sensible advise throughout those 1900 years,

In that situation Israel probably ceases to exist. (...) Son asked me a question about Palestines future in 2018 or so. Double checked with dad to see if it was ok to answer said he won't like the answer. Short version is make NZ your home Palestine is gone and things are gonna get worse over there due to climate change if nothing else.

Maybe some day the Palestinians will unite and claim their 'promised land', or maybe the Catholics will have another go,

who can tell....

 

[Absolution]

I wonder how many Jews were given the same, sensible advise throughout those 1900 years,

Some early Zionists considered the idea of a Jewish state in Uganda if Zion is out of reach.
The idea failed early on, and Britain established a mandate in Palestine, so all forgot about other places.

 

[Zardnaar]

I wonder how many Jews were given the same, sensible advise throughout those 1900 years,



Maybe some day the Palestinians will unite and claim their 'promised land', or maybe the Catholics will have another go,

who can tell....

Won't be in their lifetimes.

 

[Lexicus]

No True Jewish person would be anti-Zionist, right??

 

[Snowygerry]

There are anti-Zionist Jews I'm sure...

 

[Lexicus]

There are anti-Zionist Jews I'm sure...

Yes, it was a rhetorical/sarcastic question. At least Absolution didn't claim, full stop, that all true Jews support every last crime of the Israeli government over the last eighty years and the ones who don't are self-hating/fake Jews.

 

[Snowygerry]

Won't be in their lifetimes.

Well - that's what I mean, in the ME things are typically calculated on a larger timescale,

what's one lifetime in view of eternity

 

[Senethro]

Someone recently pointed out to me that the connection between ethnic/religious civil wars/violence in Ireland, Israel+Palestine and India+Pakistan is it happened on the watch of the Brits. Huh. How about that?

 

[Absolution]

Why do you attribute all of these views to me?

But just remember - not only we have to differentiate between a Jew and a Zionist - we also have to differentiate between a Zionist and an Israel supporter.

 

[Lexicus]

Why do you attribute all of these views to me?

But just remember - not only we have to differentiate between a Jew and a Zionist - we also have to differentiate between a Zionist and an Israel supporter.

If you're talking to me, I noted you did not say any of that stuff. It's a good thing. I agree with you completely as to your second sentence. (well sort of anyway - depending on what you mean by "Israel supporter.")

 

[Sofista]

Anyway, I'm not sure any Venetian and a Sicilian of the 18th century could see much sense in a future idea of a pan-Italian nation that includes them both.

One example to defend your case, and you get it wrong.

 

[caketastydelish]

True enough. My point was more about appearances than anything else, anyway. Deaths from turrism can be very easily put to political uses that benefit the oligarchy; it's rather harder to do that with the deaths from covid. And it's not like the military responses to terrorism have been particularly effective at preventing terrorism anyway.

Are we sure about this? We haven’t had a 9/11 since then, which was 20 years ago. Obviously, there are people in college now who weren’t alive during the day of the tragedy. Who is to say the us actions against alqueda have been pointless.