The logical end result of Intelligent Design

As in God makes living things evolve, or makes living things such that they would evolve.
That's exactly what I've been proposing to people who want to accept the scientific viewpoint of reality and simultaneously believe in god. Some posters on this forum already hold this viewpoint, such as Eran of Arcadia.

Well, in my humble experience, most people who believe in ID have just dressed up creationism, so...
That is indeed my experience too.
 
You won't get a response to your letter because it's loaded to prevent answers that aren't biased. Those questions are impossible to answer scientifically, so I wonder why you asked them to begin with?
 
EDIT: I sent this email to Discovery Institute. Let's see if I get something from it.

Dear Discovery Institute:

I apologize if I'm sending this email to the wrong person. Please forward this email to the right person within the Discovery Institute, who can answer my questions.

I've been wondering what is the goal of Intelligent Design? Shouldn't these questions be answered, if Intelligent Design is true:

1. What is the name of the designer or designers?
2. How do we communicate with this designer or designers, if they're still alive?
3. What do we do with Intelligent Design in schools? In Biology class, should teachers simply say, "A designer did this," and then continue with normal cirricula? Specifically, what changes in science classes?
4. How did the designer actually design life? If this is unknown, what can be done by humans to determine how the designer designed life, and how the designer actually built it?

Please note that I'm uninterested in detecting the design in this email. I'm simply assuming that design is detectable -- in other words, that Intelligent Design is true.

If you can point to a Discovery Institute webpage that actually addresses these particular issues, that would be most helpful and would save you the trouble of typing a lengthy response.

I thank you very much for your time.

(my name which I'm censoring here)

The bolded are all scientific questions.
 
You won't get a response to your letter because it's loaded to prevent answers that aren't biased. Those questions are impossible to answer scientifically, so I wonder why you asked them to begin with?
Loaded! I can't believe you said that! I worded them specifically to get a completely religion-neutral response. That's how I'm looking at the whole thing. And if they're impossible to answer scientifically, then ID is not science. So there we go again.
 
:nono: Don't threadjack.
 
The bolded are all scientific questions.
Careful, Machinae--the ID advocates do NOT want those boldfaced questions to actually be answered, especially that last one! If it becomes possible for us humans to design life, then it becomes impossible to prove that it was actually a God who designed us. :)
 
I took a look at their site already. I couldn't find anything useful after a quick look. I'll look harder.

EDIT:

I got an answer of sorts. I have not read it yet since it's 3 am and I'd like to go to sleep. I just quickly checked my email and this forum. I'll read it tomorrow since it's lengthy.

~~~~~~~~begin email~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Alex,



Greetings and thanks for your e-mail and your questions. I’ll briefly try to respond to your questions:



You wrote: “I've been wondering what is the goal of Intelligent Design? Shouldn't these questions be answered, if Intelligent Design is true:”



I reply: The goal of intelligent design is to take a strictly scientific approach to studying nature to determine if natural objects contain the informational properties which indicate they were designed. Because intelligent design takes a scientific approach, it does not try to address religious questions about the identity or nature of the designer. As William Dembski writes:



"Intelligent design is modest in what it attributes to the designing intelligence responsible for the specified complexity in nature. For instance, design theorists recognize that the nature, moral character and purposes of this intelligence lie beyond the competence of science and must be left to religion and philosophy." (William Dembski, The Design Revolution, pg. 42)



Similarly Michael Behe writes:



"The most important difference [between modern ID and Paley] is that [ID] is limited to design itself; I strongly emphasize that it is not an argument for the existence of a benevolent God, as Paley's was. I hasten to add that I myself do believe in a benevolent God, and I recognize that philosophy and theology may be able to extend the argument. But a scientific argument for design in biology does not reach that far. Thus while I argue for design, the question of the identity of the designer is left open. Possible candidates for the role of designer include: the God of Christianity; an angel--fallen or not; Plato's demi-urge; some mystical new age force; space aliens from Alpha Centauri; time travelers; or some utterly unknown intelligent being. Of course, some of these possibilities may seem more plausible than others based on information from fields other than science. Nonetheless, as regards the identity of the designer, modern ID theory happily echoes Isaac Newton's phrase hypothesis non fingo. (Michael Behe, "The Modern Intelligent Design Hypothesis," Philosophia Christi, Series 2, Vol. 3, No. 1 (2001), pg. 165, emphasis added.)



Similarly the textbook Of Pandas and People stated:



"If science is based upon experience, then science tells us the message encoded in DNA must have originated from an intelligent cause. But what kind of intelligent agent was it? On its own, science cannot answer this question; it must leave it to religion and philosophy. But that should not prevent science from acknowledging evidences for an intelligent cause origin wherever they may exist. This is no different, really, than if we discovered life did result from natural causes. We still would not know, from science, if the natural cause was all that was involved, or if the ultimate explanation was beyond nature, and using the natural cause." (Of Pandas and People, a pro-ID textbook, pg. 7, emphasis added)



What you are dealing with here are epistemological limits of a scientific theory. Epistemology is the study of knowledge, or how we know what we know and involves investigating when a person is justified in holding a particular belief. Many of the objections and questions your e-mail relate to the specific claim that intelligent design theory makes, or supposedly ought to make. Implicit in many of the questions seems to be the belief that intelligent design is silent on certain issues when it shouldn't be.



Science is a way of knowing and science studies nature using the “scientific method.” There may be some things that are not amenable to study using the scientific method. A scientific theory makes claims about the natural world based upon observations of the natural world and employing empirically-based mechanisms to explain those observations. A scientific theory cannot make claims which go beyond things that are possible to observe and cannot employ mechanisms which in principle could not be empirically-justified.



Every theory therefore has empirical bounds and limitations. In other words, a theory can only explain those things which are possible to observe and explain using empirically-based mechanisms and the tools and technology available to us. Theories simply are not capable of explaining things beyond their empirical bounds and limitations.



Intelligent design is a scientific theory that also has a particular scope. All scientific theories have limits. ID cannot be faulted if its scope is limited; nor can it be ignored or dismissed on answers it provides to questions within its scope simply because it fails to address a question we would prefer to lie within its scope, but doesn't. Asking intelligent design to answer questions outside of its scope is to make a category fallacy. It is like asking a bachelor to whom he is married, when a bachelor is by definition unmarried. To fault intelligent design theory for not explaining enough, when its empirically-based scope limits what it can explain, is to fall trap to the same mistake.



But what happens when questions are posed to the intelligent design theorist such as, "Who is the designer?" or "Can we communicate with the designer?" The question must be asked, "What is the explanatory scope of intelligent design theory?" or more specifically, "How much can intelligent design theory explain based upon observations which are possible from the natural world?"



Fundamental to intelligent design theory is the fact that the ways that intelligent agents act can be observed in the natural world and described. When observing intelligent agents, Intelligent design theorists find that when intelligent agents act, they tend to produce high levels of "complex-specified information." In our experience, complex-specified information is always the product of the action of intelligent design. "Complex specified information" is basically a scenario, or a circumstance, which is unlikely to occur (making it complex/high information), and conforms to a specific pattern (making it specified). Both language and machines are good examples of things with high levels of complex-specified information. However, when we look at biology, similar complex machine-like entities exist, which must be exactly as they are, or they cease to function properly. They are specified, because they conform to a particular pattern of arrangement and organization which is necessary for them to function, and complex because they have an unlikely arrangement of many interacting parts.



The high level of complex-specified information in these biological machines makes them irreducibly complex: they have many interacting parts (making them complex) which must be exactly as they are in order for the machine to work properly (making them specified), and any change in the nature or arrangement of these parts would destroy their function, and make the machine stop working, thus making them irreducibly complex (they could not be any less complex and still function).



It is possible to recognize that a computer is designed by knowing certain features about it (like that it is complex and carries information) and know that it had a designer. However, simply because can infer to the best explanation that the computer was designed does not necessarily mean that one can identify the designer or communicate with him or her.



In this regard, the following questions are outside the empirical scope of intelligent design:

“1. What is the name of the designer or designers?”
“2. How do we communicate with this designer or designers, if they're still alive?”



Regarding this one:

“4. How did the designer actually design life? If this is unknown, what can be done by humans to determine how the designer designed life, and how the designer actually built it?”



..there may be some things that can be known, but generally it is not a question that is necessary to answer if we can detect design. In this regard, I refer you to this page for a good answer: http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1175



You also asked:
“3. What do we do with Intelligent Design in schools? In Biology class, should teachers simply say, "A designer did this," and then continue with normal cirricula? Specifically, what changes in science classes?”

I reply: Regarding ID in education, Discovery Institute opposes mandating ID in public schools. However, if ID were taught, then a teacher could discuss how intelligent design theorists detect design in nature, and then discuss the informational properties (i.e. irreducible complexity, specified complexity, and other experimental data) showing that various natural objects were designed. There is SO MUCH TO STUDY within ID that is incredible.



By the way, I took over a dozen courses covering evolutionary biology at both the undergraduate and graduate levels, and I was often simply told “evolution did this” with no further explanation given. In my experience, ID provides us with no fewer details than does Darwinian evolution about the history of life.



Thanks and I hope this helps.



Sincerely,



Casey Luskin

~~~~~~~end email~~~~~~~~~
 
I have little time at this moment. I'll have to write an email to Mr. Luskin later.

I can't believe what I read! Mr. Luskin is admitting that ID is an intellectual dead end! Basically, ID is for detecting design, and then that's it. Unbelievable! What the hell kind of science is that?!

ID, as explained by Mr. Luskin, leaves me with this:

Earth life that is intelligently designed => Earth life as it is today
or
Earth life that is not intelligently designed => Earth life as it is today

ID is a complete waste! ID is pure philosophy and not even a good philosophy. I'm astonished that these guys didn't notice this. It offers NOTHING to anyone. It really is just a new name for creationism. There can be no other explanation.

I'm curious about this part that Mr. Luskin said:
"There is SO MUCH TO STUDY within ID that is incredible."

I'll have to ask him about this.

EDIT: Missed a word in one of my sentences, which changed the meaning of the sentence.
 
Of course, such as the fact that antibiotics would wipe out all disease, but they did not recognise the possibility of mutations that could make antibiotics ineffective, but those antibiotic resistant bacteria are much weaker that their non resistant ones so they die out amongst their stronger brethren. Or shall we talk about vestigial organ, where people had supposedly useless organs that were the remnant of evolutionary past, but in recent time we know every organ in the human body serves a purpose, even when we were not sure what it was. Or shall we talk about junk DNA? The idea that most of our DNA was remnants of our evolutionary past, but that has been discarded and shown how wrong and how useful the non coding parts of DNA actually is. It is common knowledge now, but earlier is was not predicted that way, so again another example of evolutionary biology being proven wrong by modern biology. So clearly they are not the same thing if modern biology corrects the false premises of evolutionary biology.

As for as the vestigial organs go, what you described is incorrect. The vestigial organs in organisms are not useless, they have a purpose, if I remember correctly. But they're purpose is not the same as the organs of the organisms evolutionary ancestors. With the junk DNA, I don't think theirs any question that they are not completely useless, but not all of the junk DNA is completely useful either.

Evolutionary biology is modern biology. But your statement doesn't make much sense. The theory of evolution is the cornerstone of modern biology, so without the theory there is no biology.
 
Of course 'junk DNA' has a physiological effect. The evolutionary question is whether or not it confers a selective advantage. Given the masses of point mutations the junk DNA can suffer, it doesn't always 'have' to be there.
 
I have little time at this moment. I'll have to write an email to Mr. Luskin later.

I can't believe what I read! Mr. Luskin is admitting that ID is an intellectual dead end! Basically, ID is for detecting design, and then that's it. Unbelievable! What the hell kind of science is that?!

ID, as explained by Mr. Luskin, leaves me with this:

Earth life that is intelligently designed => Earth life as it is today
or
Earth life that is not intelligently designed => Earth life as it is today

ID is a complete waste! ID is pure philosophy and not even a good philosophy. I'm astonished that these guys didn't notice this. It offers NOTHING to anyone. It really is just a new name for creationism. There can be no other explanation.

I'm curious about this part that Mr. Luskin said:
"There is SO MUCH TO STUDY within ID that is incredible."

I'll have to ask him about this.

EDIT: Missed a word in one of my sentences, which changed the meaning of the sentence.

Philosophers would give you an earful for that.

Anyway, science doesn't teach people how to live. Science is concerned with truth and progress. The meaning of life? Science isn't going to hand you the answer. If Intelligent Design is the truth, then it is. What else do you expect? Why does it necessarily follow that you have to contact or know who the designer is? And why can't you simply start another research on the identity and method of the designer once you've established that the universe was designed? This is like faulting biology for not giving you a complete answer on how cellular life began. If you want to find out everything about that, you'd have to turn to physics as well. I think Behe is right on this point.
 
Philosophers would give you an earful for that.

Anyway, science doesn't teach people how to live. Science is concerned with truth and progress. The meaning of life? Science isn't going to hand you the answer. If Intelligent Design is the truth, then it is. What else do you expect? Why does it necessarily follow that you have to contact or know who the designer is?
Because if you stop at "Oh, I see. The universe is designed. Yay," then that just isn't science. And judging by what Behe wrote about it, the individual is allowed to imagine any creator he wants. That's insane! Oh look, I see a shoe. I'm going to imagine that was made in Antarctica, so that's the truth.

And why can't you simply start another research on the identity and method of the designer once you've established that the universe was designed? This is like faulting biology for not giving you a complete answer on how cellular life began. If you want to find out everything about that, you'd have to turn to physics as well. I think Behe is right on this point.

There's a difference. In biology, if one guy doesn't know everything that goes on in a cell, someone else is working on it. And, at no point do biologists just stop learning.

However, like you and Behe said, if ID is just to detect a designer, then some other project must be initiated after the designer is detected. I find it extremely odd that the IDers don't include that.

One other I forgot to include is: "Why would a designer create life?"
 
Because if you stop at "Oh, I see. The universe is designed. Yay," then that just isn't science. And judging by what Behe wrote about it, the individual is allowed to imagine any creator he wants. That's insane! Oh look, I see a shoe. I'm going to imagine that was made in Antarctica, so that's the truth.

Of course not, but there must a point at which this particular research ends.

Phlegmak said:
There's a difference. In biology, if one guy doesn't know everything that goes on in a cell, someone else is working on it. And, at no point do biologists just stop learning.

And when they go back to how cells first emerged, they have pretty much reached or almost reached a dead end for biology, where physics would probably be more relevant.

Phlegmak said:
However, like you and Behe said, if ID is just to detect a designer, then some other project must be initiated after the designer is detected. I find it extremely odd that the IDers don't include that.

Isn't Behe an Intelligent Design proponent. He said that.

Phlegmak said:
One other I forgot to include is: "Why would a designer create life?"

That is a philosophical or theological question.
 
Not at all. If anything, that opens the door to engineering brand new life, as well as reinterpreting the importance of the most basic machinery of life, on the cellular level.

And when they go back to how cells first emerged, they have pretty much reached or almost reached a dead end for biology, where physics would probably be more relevant.


.
 
Back
Top Bottom