The Most Moddable Civilization ever....apparently isn't that moddable.

[Toady]

I understand, thanks for replying.

 

[Meeber]

Listen, when someone advertises a product, and says it has certain traits, it is pretty natural to assume that when you buy the product it will have those traits. If you bought a ham and cheese sandwhich, and there wasn't cheese on it, would you:

A) Ask for your cheese.
B) Assume that a chef would be out any minute to hand it to you
C) Tell everyone you didn't actually want cheese.

I would see that the ham and cheese sandwich has so much 'potential' that some day cheese will be served with that ham in cheese sandwich. So until then I will tell the cook how much of a wonderful job they are doing with releasing advertised sandwiches with missing components.
[Sarcasm off]
Remember for some (I don't want to say gullible people) all that matters is the 'potential' of the game and not the game itself.


PS. I have some swamp land to sell if anyone is interested. It has a lot of 'POTENTIAL'

 

[Slowpoke]

well potential is fine if it means waiting a month, but 6 months? *grumble*

 

[Meeber]

No, Elemental is getting better and better, and you have chances to communicate with their designers/programmers.
Each time Stardock pre-listed a patch, finally did it, which bring me hopes.
While 2k, when patches out, it hurt me once more.

Yea but Elemental still is barely playable and not that fun yet. It has a long way to go. Yes Stardock Devs are more accessable which is a plus but upon release Elemental was a POS product. Does it have potential ...of coarse. Will the game one day be a good fun game ...I think so. However that is no excuse for release a 1/2 finished crappy game to begin with. At least CIV5 was a fun game upon release and looked 10 times better than Elemental but it to still has many,many, many issues that Devs need to address.
I have stopped playing Elemental until after the first of the year (due to the non-fun factor) in hopes that it will improve by then. I do still play CIV5 because for me it is still fun even in it's 1/2 finished state.

 

[Vellis]

I would see that the ham and cheese sandwich has so much 'potential' that some day cheese will be served with that ham in cheese sandwich. So until then I will tell the cook how much of a wonderful job they are doing with releasing advertised sandwiches with missing components.
[Sarcasm off]
Remember for some (I don't want to say gullible people) all that matters is the 'potential' of the game and not the game itself.


PS. I have some swamp land to sell if anyone is interested. It has a lot of 'POTENTIAL'

Am I gullible or are you naive? I knew when I bought Civ 5 that it might have some problems. That's a distinct possibility with ANY new PC game. Whether you think it's right or not is irrelevant, that's how it is and has been for the last decade, and it's not going to change no matter how idealistic you may be. If you're surprised when it happens, I have some swamp land to sell you. Don't check it out first or ask for anyone else's opinion, I promise it's perfect.

I'm not gullible, I've simply accepted how the industry works. I'm a patient person, I do see potential in Civ V and I'm perfectly content to wait until it's realized. I've already gotten more play time out of Civ V than I've gotten out of most of the games I've bought in my life. Once it's seen a few more patches I'm sure I'll get even more. I have plenty of other enjoyable things to do with my free time until that day comes, waiting doesn't bother me.

 

[Meeber]

Just the name "Modbuddy" makes me cringe. Seriously, "Modbuddy"? WTH. Thought experiment...applying for a job...programming experience (resume)...Modbuddy?...nah just stick to Visual Studio.

Hell I can't even get into Modbuddy because I keep getting errors that it is missing a componet. I've uninstalled then reinstalled it and Visual stufdio several times. I can however get into World builder.

 

[da_Vinci]

you know Civ 5 is the oddest game i ever bought, one day i'm upset with it, the next brings some hope, then something happens to disappoint me again, then hope again, and now this, more unhappiness.

It's like a rollercoaster, up down up down, i wonder how i will feel about the game once it's finished, this lack of modding ability is probably worst disappointment yet though.

kind of funny, you could show my feelings for the game on a graph like the "retire option" in Civ 4, but thats gone now hehe.

Maybe that explains the uproar ... it's not Civ, it's Rollercoaster Tycoon?

The game is most moddable CIV ever ... as far for the DLC creators.

"No modding for you!" (The Mod Nazi, from Seinfeld)

dV

 

[The_J]

Just want to point out that it was mentioned numerous times in interviews that modding wouldn't be available till about 6 months after release, the same situation we faced for Civ4.

So the fact we actually got ANY modding tools now is a bonus.

Just saying is all.

Also just saying: What asio³ tried, does not have anything to do with the tools.
There's something else screwed, which has nothing to do with the tools (not that it is a supprise...).

Firaxis said the C++ code wouldn't be available until six months or so after release. They never said the other modding tools wouldn't work on release. Firaxis simply lied in their marketing. The issues which they mentioned as the biggest bonus points and improvements of Civ5 (diplomacy, AI, interface, modding) are actually the most broken and unfinished.

I don't think these are the most broken parts, everything is broken equaly.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

It's against our NDA to discuss anything relating to the development process of the game.

I will say though, that some of the best Civ players from all over the World were on the fan-test team. It's a shame so many of them have already moved on or are moving on.

I know this is tangenital to the whole modding issue (if I tried any modding I'd only end up causing Armageddon, I'm that unknowledgable) but I think the part I bolded shows up a big problem with the testing system. A test should be a stress-test, where you take the product and see how many ways you can break it and then trying to fix those breaks. From calling it a fan-test team (and I don't believe that this is a slip of the tongue here but the actual title of the team being used) and from what I've heard about some of the members of the tests from other Civ sites I lurk (i.e. their fanboyishness, not anything bad) all I can see from Civ V testing is loads of people sitting down at their computers going "this mechanic is so cool" and drooling like Homer Simpson thinking of an all-you-can-eat buffet.

I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but nothing about the game so far has disabused me of this notion (please note I only played the demo I was so disenchanted with it).

 

[Maniac]

I don't think these are the most broken parts, everything is broken equaly.

How do you know? Did you buy Civ5 after all?

Personally I disagree and think Civ5 has several good design ideas. I actually like global happiness and 1UpT for instance. It's matters unrelated to these ideas themselves which cause the potential of these ideas to not be reached. Respectively ICS and bad AI for my two examples.

 

[The_J]

From calling it a fan-test team (and I don't believe that this is a slip of the tongue here but the actual title of the team being used) and from what I've heard about some of the members of the tests from other Civ sites I lurk (i.e. their fanboyishness, not anything bad) all I can see from Civ V testing is loads of people sitting down at their computers going "this mechanic is so cool" and drooling like Homer Simpson thinking of an all-you-can-eat buffet.

You're sure wrong.
There are bugs everyones grandmother would have discovered.
The testers probably just have been ignored at the end.

How do you know? Did you buy Civ5 after all?

Good point .
No, i've just read every single post in the bug and tech support forum, and the brokeness is partially incredible.

 

[Psyringe]

I don't think these are the most broken parts, everything is broken equaly.

"A designer knows he has achieved rejection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to break."

(Sorry, couldn't resist. )

A test should be a stress-test, where you take the product and see how many ways you can break it and then trying to fix those breaks. From calling it a fan-test team (and I don't believe that this is a slip of the tongue here but the actual title of the team being used) and from what I've heard about some of the members of the tests from other Civ sites I lurk (i.e. their fanboyishness, not anything bad) all I can see from Civ V testing is loads of people sitting down at their computers going "this mechanic is so cool" and drooling like Homer Simpson thinking of an all-you-can-eat buffet.

Calling the fan test team such is neither a slip of the tongue nor signifiying any fanboyism, it just denotes how the team was recruited (i.e. from the two largest Civ fansites). The "official" name of the fan test team is "Frankenstein team", feel free to let your associations run rampant, but I don't think that name signifies much either. The team was assembled to perform stress tests (at least for Civ4); basically, Soren learned from Civ3 that good players would be able to spot any gameplay imbalances and AI weaknesses much quicker than anyone else, so for Civ4 he wanted competent fans to accompany the design process, to have their input quickly (and not only after the official release).

It's possible that this didn't quite work out for Civ5. I can see several scenarios why that could be the case, but I doubt that fanboyism played a role.

 

[Dale]

From calling it a fan-test team (and I don't believe that this is a slip of the tongue here but the actual title of the team being used) and from what I've heard about some of the members of the tests from other Civ sites I lurk (i.e. their fanboyishness, not anything bad) all I can see from Civ V testing is loads of people sitting down at their computers going "this mechanic is so cool" and drooling like Homer Simpson thinking of an all-you-can-eat buffet.

The Frankenstein team is only one part of an entire testing cycle.

Also, you are focusing on the wrong part of my comment. Here, I'll make it easier for you to catch on. This is the important part:

It's a shame so many of them have already moved on

(i.e. from the two largest Civ fansites)

That's wrong too. The Franky team comes from all over. I know of at least 7 Civ sites represented (and I'm sure there's more), multiple clans, and even mega-fans who don't even participate in any of these but are known by Firaxis.

 

[SuperJay]

Random aside, just started reading some WPC threads. They certainly don't have a very high opinion of CFC! That said, maybe that would be a better venue for discussion than CFC is currently. Hmmm.

 

[Psyringe]

That's wrong too. The Franky team comes from all over. I know of at least 7 Civ sites represented (and I'm sure there's more), multiple clans, and even mega-fans who don't even participate in any of these but are known by Firaxis.

Ah, okay. I was referring to a comment made by Soren in the Civ4 prototyping talk, as far as I recall he mentioned only 'poly and CFC there. Seems that this piece of data is either outdated or was never right in the first place then, thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Zen Blade]

Dale,

Any luck with modding the AI... in ANY fashion/aspect of the game?

I have a major (for me) mod in progress, and the last element I am trying to mod before releasing a "beta" version is the AI... it's horrible in a standard game...

and even worse in the scenario/mod that I have made. I am nearing the point where I just need constant war between all players... or a few juggernaut civs that will steam roll over the other computer civs so that there is a viable challenge/excitement for the human player.

Any thoughts (on the AI+modding of it)?

-Zen Blade

 

[Izmir Stinger]

you know Civ 5 is the oddest game i ever bought, one day i'm upset with it, the next brings some hope, then something happens to disappoint me again, then hope again, and now this, more unhappiness.

It's like a rollercoaster, up down up down, i wonder how i will feel about the game once it's finished, this lack of modding ability is probably worst disappointment yet though.

kind of funny, you could show my feelings for the game on a graph like the "retire option" in Civ 4, but thats gone now hehe.

Quoted for Truth

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I think this is a bit of an overreaction. They definitely took modding into consideration more with this game than with any previous civ, it's just not all the way there yet. The tools will get fixed, the full SDK will get released, the documentation will come together, it will all just take time. The modding tools should always come second to the actual game for several reasons. First of all, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to go nuts over documentation for the Lua functions since many will likely change over the first few patches. Second, a large portion of the people who bought the game will likely never touch the mod tools or even the mods. Third, even of the people who will use the mod tools, many of them will spend the first few weeks to months after release actually playing the game before they get into modding. The game has only been out a month, bear in mind that most of the major mods for CIV came out over a year after the game was released.

Can't agree with you on that. From day 1 of Civ4's release I was making extremely simple mods using primarily XML. Then, within little more than 1 month, the full SDK was launched & the mods were coming thick & fast (even I was modding using C++, in spite of having *no* prior experience in computing). Yet here we are, nearly 2 full months since Civ5's release, & we have a Lua that doesn't work properly, & still no SDK. The only thing Civ5 currently has on Civ4 is the modular XML.

Aussie.

 

[Slowpoke]

Dale,

Any luck with modding the AI... in ANY fashion/aspect of the game?

I have a major (for me) mod in progress, and the last element I am trying to mod before releasing a "beta" version is the AI... it's horrible in a standard game...

and even worse in the scenario/mod that I have made. I am nearing the point where I just need constant war between all players... or a few juggernaut civs that will steam roll over the other computer civs so that there is a viable challenge/excitement for the human player.

Any thoughts (on the AI+modding of it)?

-Zen Blade

Tactical A.I., there's nothing major we can do I think, just some piddly stuff. Strategic A.I. and diplomacy we can do a whole lot, but there's not much point since that is the next patch's focus.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

You really do have to love the reliability of Civ5's band of loyal defenders. Their responses are so Pavlovian-it's *hilarious*. "The game is crap". Defense: "you just have too high expectations"; "modding tools are practically useless". Defense: "then just go back & mod Civ4" (I already am).

Here's an additional point I'd like to make-before Civ5, I never felt the *need* to have mods in place just to get basic enjoyment from the game-I could usually just enjoy the game in its unmodded format, then make use of the various mods to create new game-play opportunities (like my Civics Mod, Rise of Man, The Ancient Mediterranean, White Lies, Black Ops-just to name a few).

With the advent of the poorly designed Civ5, though, I've found myself *needing* Mods right out of the gate-just for basic gameplay-so *yes* I expect those mod tools to be functioning pretty quick smart!

Aussie.