The Nazis were considered "left wing" by the people of that time

[civman110]

I made a thread to discuss the Nazis, because it's a topic that seems to come up a lot here and has the tendency to take threads off-topic.

This thread isn't suggesting that the Nazis were Communists, it's arguing that both are left wing ideologies and in historical records from the time that was the consensus, however they're different power blocks. For example, just because monarchies fought other monarchies doesn't mean they both couldn't be monarchies - That isn't sound reasoning. You have to examine their actions and policies to make that determination.

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In order to believe that the Nazis were "right wing" you have to ignore some blatantly obvious facts about the Nazi regime. The biggest being that they named themselves "The National Socialist German Worker's Party" and published a 25 point socialist manifesto. Hitler also railed against capitalism as an evil scheme of the Jews and said so in speech after speech, while declaring he was a Socialist.

The Nazis nationalized education, health care, transportation, and other major industries. They instituted and vigorously enforced a strict gun control regimen. They encouraged pornography, illegitimacy, and abortion, and they denounced Christians as right-wing fanatics. Like Lenin and Stalin, Hitler eliminated trade unions, and replaced them with his own state-run labour organizations.

“We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions”

– Adolf Hitler, Hitler’s speech on May 1, 1927. Cited in: Toland, John (1992). Adolf Hitler. Anchor Books. pp. 224–225. ISBN 0385037244.

Nazi is an acronym for "National Socialist." Socialists are on the left of the political spectrum and that is why historical records from the time refer to the Nazis as being left wing. The truth of the matter is if you compare the actions and policies of the Nazis to that of the Soviet Union at the time, although their rhetoric was quite different, their actions are almost identical. It wasn't until recent history that the public began equating Nazi with "right wing" referencing racism, genocide and eliminating political rivals (right and left), but selectively ignoring that the Communists also committed genocide and eliminated political rivals (right and left) as well, but they are still considered "left wing." Therefore, this kind of behaviour is neither "left," nor "right" ideologically - but is a symptom of authoritarianism.


Here's some policies from "The National Socialist German Worker's Party" Manifesto, that would be unequivalently considered lefitist policies:

12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

16. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

22. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.

25. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

The entire 25 point document can be viewed here:

Spoiler :

1. We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the right of self-determination of peoples.

2. We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.

4. Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.

5. Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.

6. The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.

7. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.

8. Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since the 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.

9. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.

10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all Consequently we demand:

11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.

12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

16. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

18. We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, Schieber and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.

19. We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world order.

20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

21. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child labour, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

22. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.

23. We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that:

a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race.

b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language.

c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.

24. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: common utility precedes individual utility.

25. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

- See more at: http://alphahistory.com/nazigermany/nazi-party-25-points-1920/#sthash.PerFbnmI.dpuf

As you can see their policies are quite Socialist, that's why they named themselves "The National Socialist German Worker's Party" after all.

Was Fascism Right-Wing (Again)? by JONAH GOLDBERG May 5, 2015 2:06 PM @JONAHNRO

Historically speaking, the people of that time said it was left...

The often very interesting blogger Pseudoerasmus has a long post about whether fascism can be considered left-wing (picking up from another post by John Holbo at Crooked Timber). Pseudoerasmus focuses on the question of Italy’s place on the left–right spectrum, though when convenient he cites examples from Nazi history. He is very skeptical, arguing that in “historical terms” fascism should be seen as right-wing. “I think the issue is kind of obvious,” he writes, “but it’s always good to have an excuse to pontificate on matters historical.” I agree, so let me offer some counter pontification.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/417926/was-fascism-right-wing-again-jonah-goldberg

 

[Hygro]

...and the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea is democratic.

 

[civman110]

...and the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea is democratic.

As I said, you have to examine the policies. I just posted the policies of "The National Socialist German Worker's Party," or "Nazis." They are socialist policies, as their name would suggest.

 

[warpus]

Have you posted all of their policies, or only those that support your hypothesis?

 

[civman110]

Have you posted all of their policies, or only those that support your hypothesis?

I posted their entire 25 point manifesto.

 

[Bugfatty300]

So you're going by their public relations FAQ pamphlet rather than the actual policies that they instituted while in power...not impressed.

 

[civman110]

So you're going by their public relations FAQ pamphlet rather than the actual policies that they instituted while in power...not impressed.

They put the polices in their manifesto into action. If you believe this to not be the case, which I would argue against, feel free to supply your reasoning.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Yes, the SA "Brown Shirts" represented the branch of the party that emphasized German workers and embraced the socialist side of Nazism over the nationalist side (although, as civman says, they were definitely not Marxist - the German Communist Party and the Red Front were favorite targets for the SA's thugs). Hitler became uncomfortable with their notions and had several of them killed in 1934 - "the Night of the Long Knives" - including Ernst Rohm and Gregor Strasser, and the party's power structure tilted towards the SS and Gestapo, and they essentially became the group we all know today.

p.s. As to the thread title, I know it's just a shin-kicker to start a conversation, but I'm not sure they were considered "Left Wing." To my memory, they subscribed to ideas from the traditional right and the traditional left (is ethnic nationalism a 'left wing' thing?), and rejected ideas from both. Kind of the whole point was to find something else, something German and Aryan.

 

[Tahuti]

...and the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea is democratic.

Well, if you believe democracy and totalitarianism is the same thing, it is.

Since I define totalitarianism as the 'integration of citizenry and state' and democracy as the 'integration of citizenry and state', I happen to be one of them. It is of course a very nice theory that democracy is about 'rule of the people [over the state]'. The problem is that it doesn't take into account who rules the people.

 

[warpus]

Since I define tomatoes to be blue, they are.

 

[Tahuti]

Since I define tomatoes to be blue, they are.

Speaking about the colour blue, I suspect you have taken a blue pill.

 

[civman110]

p.s. As to the thread title, I know it's just a shin-kicker to start a conversation, but I'm not sure they were considered "Left Wing." To my memory, they subscribed to ideas from the traditional right and the traditional left (is ethnic nationalism a 'left wing' thing?), and rejected ideas from both. Kind of the whole point was to find something else, something German and Aryan.

No worries.

I would argue that hyper-nationalism, or hyper-ethnic nationalism is a symptom of authoritarianism/totalitarianism and is not part of the left/right dichotomy. Also prior to WWII, countries were a lot more ethnically nationalistic than they are today and were much tighter on immigration and that was not considered to be a right wing policy.

Imo, authoritarianism/totalitarianism doesn't fit within the left/right dichotomy. It operates outside of it, but if we are going to analyze Nazi policies I would place them on the left end of the political spectrum.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Isn't this Nazi 25-point manifesto = Leftist a copypasta? I'm pretty sure I've seen this exact argument around before on the internet.

 

[civman110]

Isn't this Nazi 25-point manifesto = Leftist a copypasta? I'm pretty sure I've seen this exact argument around before on the internet.

I'm not sure what you mean. If you're suggesting that, that's not the Nazis' official manifesto you would be mistaken.

 

[BenitoChavez]

They may of had some left leaning economic policies, but I'd consider their social policies to be right wing. The Nazis wanted to wanted to revert society back to a state before all the "impure" people came to Germany. Reverting society back to a previous state is ultimately a conservative (ie right wing) ideal.

 

[civman110]

They may of had some left leaning economic policies, but I'd consider their social policies to be right wing. The Nazis wanted to wanted to revert society back to a state before all the "impure" people came to Germany. Reverting society back to a previous state is ultimately a conservative (ie right wing) ideal.

Then how do you reconcile that thought with the fact that the Soviet Union and Communist China both ethnically cleansed their populations as well, but are they are considered left wing?

 

[Senethro]

Isn't this Nazi 25-point manifesto = Leftist a copypasta? I'm pretty sure I've seen this exact argument around before on the internet.

Yeah, wasn't it me who said DPRK != democratic last time it came around? Pretty sure I cribbed it from somewhere else.

Edit: Yes it was.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-552205-p-2.html

 

[chijohnaok]

Yes, the SA "Brown Shirts" represented the branch of the party that emphasized German workers and embraced the socialist side of Nazism over the nationalist side (although, as civman says, they were definitely not Marxist - the German Communist Party and the Red Front were favorite targets for the SA's thugs). Hitler became uncomfortable with their notions and had several of them killed in 1934 - "the Night of the Long Knives" - including Ernst Rohm and Gregor Strasser, and the party's power structure tilted towards the SS and Gestapo, and they essentially became the group we all know today.

p.s. As to the thread title, I know it's just a shin-kicker to start a conversation, but I'm not sure they were considered "Left Wing." To my memory, they subscribed to ideas from the traditional right and the traditional left (is ethnic nationalism a 'left wing' thing?), and rejected ideas from both. Kind of the whole point was to find something else, something German and Aryan.

"Ethnic nationalism" is not necessarily something that would be unique to "right wing" groups. During WW 2 the Soviet Union used Russian nationalism to rally the country. They called it the "Great Patriotic War", and they were defending the "Motherland". In the armed forces, medals commemorating the medieval hero Alexander Nevsky, Field Marshals Suvorov and Kutuzov, Admirals Nakhimov and Ushakov were displayed prominently; the Order of St George reappeared, and the pre-revolutionary military uniform was revived. These actions are the sort of thing many (or most) people today would attribute to "right wing" groups.

 

[BenitoChavez]

Then how do you reconcile that thought with the fact that the Soviet Union and Communist China both ethnically cleansed their populations as well, but are they are considered left wing?

Well its not really the ethnic cleansing part that's conservative, its the reverting back to a previous state that's conservative. Nazi Germany wanted "Germany for the Germans" before all the other ethnic groups came. The Soviet Union and Communist China were trying to "progress" society by creating something new, a Communist nation. Its just their chosen method of "progression" meant eliminating all political opposition which resulted in massacres, famines, etc.

 

[civman110]

Well its not really the ethnic cleansing part that's conservative, its the reverting back to a previous state that's conservative. Nazi Germany wanted "Germany for the Germans" before all the other ethnic groups came. The Soviet Union and Communist China were trying to "progress" society by creating something new, a Communist nation. Its just their chosen method of "progression" meant eliminating all political opposition which resulted in massacres, famines, etc.

Same thing different rhetoric - it's authoritarianism/totalitarianism.

Authoritarianism/totalitarianism operates outside of the left/right dichotomy, but you need to have a large centralized government, or "big government" to wield that authority and both Communists and Nazis achieved that by pursing socialist policies so they could create government bureaucracies that take their orders from the now centralized government authority.