The Next NES of Das: Development Thread

[Birdjaguar]

I've been brainstorming some more about the rules:
- As already mentioned, I'll introduce military description stats with all the useful military information. That means that the Training or Quality stat is abolished. It just kept getting silly, and I don't think it ever made sense for an abstract "training level" to be raised by simply throwing money at it. Training - of both the soldiers and the officers - is much less straightforward than that, usually; there are different goals and means and such. This military description stat (which will cover things like leadership, training, equipment, organisation, base unit and anything else that I judge relevant) will be influenced by numerous factors, such as recent combat, special training programmes, military academies and so on;

Nice idea; how many stats do you think you will need to describe a nation's military?

- Government quality stat will be replaced by a separate Bureaucracy stat. The very central authority is generally speaking personified by the player himself; if the player is good, than it would efficient, if not, then not - there isn't really much one could do about that conventionally, in a NES or (especially with monarchies and such) in real life. The bureaucracy however is obviously expandable and improvable; it manages both everyday issues in the provinces and the implementation of assorted government programmes, and the quality of the bureaucracy will influence how it all goes;

Very nice; kinda like a civilian leadership rating but I like bureaucracy better as a label.

- Suggestions on how should colonies be managed are strongly encouraged. Exploration however will simply be handled arbitrarily.

I think colonies should be separate from nations and so identified. They should have both positive and negative effects on a nation's economy. I can offer additional suggestions on colonies if you want, but most of what I think, you have probably already gleaned from BirdNES.

 

[das]

Nice idea; how many stats do you think you will need to describe a nation's military?

Just one descriptive stat. Not entirely unlike Culture, though obviously with different assorted parameters.

Very nice; kinda like a civilian leadership rating but I like bureaucracy better as a label.

How very perceptive of you. Indeed, it is more precise; as I had explained, the central civilian leadership really only depends on the player. OTL Ming China for much of its existance had a very good Bureaucracy, but lousy players (well actually I think it was just NPC'd by a somewhat inattentive mod; same difference, really).

EDIT: On the colonies, yes, I am leaning towards having separate stats for those, at least for the major ("socially viable") ones as opposed to every little trade outpost or fort. On a somewhat related note, the Trade stat should probably be divided between "markets" for major colonial/exploring powers, i.e. European trade, African trade, East Indian trade and so on, for clarity's sake.

Going back to the map issue again:

This?
or
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/31004/VerNorthKing.png
this?

I'm honestly not sure, I'm more used to the first one but the second seems generally more correct.

 

[fantasmo]

I prefer the first. It's smooth curves remind me of a lady.


Also I just like it better. Dunno why, actually. Maybe it's because of the lack of sharp edges. It is not a map I could cut myself on, the same cannot be said of the second map.

 

[Splime]

das: If you want to use the first map, use this one instead. It's the updated version. It has fixes in the Galapagos, Wales, and Louisiana.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=153038&d=1179284127

If it's accuracy you want though, use map #2.

 

[jeps]

If only the second had more rivers...

 

[North King]

The second one is more accurate, but stylistically very different. Depends on the atmosphere you want.

 

[das]

If only the second had more rivers...

True enough, it needs many more rivers than that. I think I'll go with the first one, for that and other reasons.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I really like the second!

 

[Israelite9191]

- Suggestions on how should colonies be managed are strongly encouraged. Exploration however will simply be handled arbitrarily.

Here is the system I developed for dependencies after trial and error (admittadly within the Ancient Age). Personally, I found that having seperate stats for colonies was far too much to deal with, so I chose something that worked on a slightly less involved level. As for the map, I chose to show colonies as being the same color as the mother country but with thick (international) borders surrounding them and capitals shown with white and black inverted. The part on colonies is italicised.

Dependencies:

There are two main kinds of dependencies that can be created or negotiated. A PC can negotiate any of these with an NPC or another PC. NPCes may also enter into these kinds of relationships with each other. Economy is different for dependencies than for independent sates, for info see Economy. The different kinds of dependencies are:

Colony: The nation to which a colony is dependent receives all of the colony's eco points from special cities. Colonies are under your direct control for military and economic matters, but other matters of domestic policy are under the control of the colonial government. Colonists tend to have little to no loyalty to their home country and are much more likely to rebel, but due to little native infrastructure are not likely to succeed. Colonial militias are at the home country’s control, but remain small and inefficient, in the event of a rebellion they revert to the control of the rebel government in an amount determined by the mod based on numerous factors.
Protectorate: The proceeds of all special cities are deducted from the protectorate and given to the parent country. The protectorate’s military is under the command of the home country, but in the event of a rebellion the forces will revert to the rebel government’s control, and normally in higher numbers than colonial militias. A protectorate maintains much of the its independent infrastructure making rebellions more successful. However, since protectorates maintain home rule they are less likely to rebel. Protectorates also have a different, slimmer, template which is as follows:

Nation Name
Capital:
Ruler/Player:
Government:
Religion:
Economy:
Infantry (Training):
Cavalry (Training):
Navy (Training):
Mercenaries (Training)(Duration of Employment):
Culture:
Projects: None
Nation Background:

 

[Symphony D.]

I'm honestly not sure, I'm more used to the first one but the second seems generally more correct.

Seems? Pardon moi?

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Old habits die hard Sym.

 

[Symphony D.]

Facts are not a matter of habit, sir Iggy.

 

[das]

Seems? Pardon moi?

It is missing some lakes (not to mention rivers, though that was probably intentional).

 

[Symphony D.]

It is missing some lakes (not to mention rivers, though that was probably intentional).

No, it was because the data sources didn't include them and at the time it was produced nobody had the wherewithal to go locate more extensive overlays. So it's missing a few European rivers that anybody can look up on a map and a few tiny lakes that are likewise--it's infinitely more accurate in every single other possible way.

 

[North King]

Infinitely more accurate is not really true; the old one is inaccurate in places, yes, but it's hardly at 0% accuracy.

 

[Symphony D.]

Right-End Behavior. Much like say, 5^X increases infinitely faster than X^1000. As level of detail approaches infinity (infinitely high detail, to the limit of resolution), one outranks the other to such a degree that it is for all intents and purposes infinitely greater, even though both are quantifiable numbers. Got to love that calculus.

Why does math keep coming up here?

About the armies - is their presence on the map useful at all (I ask those who played in ITNES I's second incarnation)? Or could you people be trusted to remember your army numbers and locations by yourself?

I found it useful, however, I think Disenfrancised's usage of it is a better option; instead of one map with everything, one map without troop placements (showing specialist cities and borders), and the other with. Less clutter, easier to distinguish what's what.

 

[Israelite9191]

Why does math keep coming up here?

Because you are here, my dear Symph.

 

[Niklas]

I would very much prefer to see the second, newer map.

I found troop numbers on the map to be very useful and would not like to see them disappear. But I agree with Symphony that putting them on a separate map would probably be preferable.

Still no answer on the era thingey?

 

[Disenfrancised]

Why does math keep coming up here?

It's probably because we live in a quantifiable universe . It is unfortunate that the Robinson projections (i.e. NESing maps) are not formula derived or we could bust out the heavy messing.

 

[Kozmos]

I will support anything das does, except ITNES.