1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

The Official Perfection KOs Creationism Thread Part Five: The Revenge of Mike Shermer

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Perfection, Nov 21, 2007.

  1. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2005
    Messages:
    51,365
    Location:
    Stamford Bridge
    Eyewitness accounts?

    What.. did this happen overnight?

    In mid-sentence, maybe?
     
  2. Perfection

    Perfection The Great Head.

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    49,824
    Location:
    Salisbury Plain
    Yes there's actual evidence, no there's no trail of debris.

    When the Earth was closer the sun was smaller and produced less heat.

    I'm not sure why exactly, but it doesn't have that much to do with giant impact hypothesis.

    In Earth's orbit and yes, on the Earth and moon.

    Titus-Bode

    The collission was basicly in Earth's orbital path (because both the impactor and Earth shared the same orbit) and Planets by definition clear their orbital neighborhood of debris.

    What you're refering to is "Late Heavy Bumbardment" where the moon got wailed by either a series of crap or a large impactor. There's significant evidence Earth got hit too.

    It doesn't need one, but the origin of the impactor at Earth's Lagrange point (a point on Earth's orbit around the sun) would imply this.

    Here's the timeline:
    ~4.5bya Proto-Eath whacked by impactor forming Moon
    ~4.4bya Earth becomes solid
    ~4.0bya LHB creams the crap out of Earth destroying much of the terrain
    ~3.9bya Earth terrain reforms and doesn't suffer impact events at that level again


    This theory doesn't work. If it were true comets would have long ceased outgassing and wouldn't have their spectacular tails. Comets have to be continually generated by some disturbance.
     
  3. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    19,907
    Location:
    the golf course
    Stew

    Actually I provided several verses showing what Adam and Eve were like before and after the tree and you ignored it.

    Thats not even true, they didn't get everything right but they didn't get everything wrong either. But thats your strawman and I exposed it already. Do people deny evolution if they make mistakes in the order of life? Deal with what I said about the Garden and dont keep dodging my argument with "well, they got that wrong so they got everything wrong".

    Inferences about the first people behaving more animal-like before obtaining the knowledge of good and evil and behaving like humans after? Even God said their eyes were now open, we had become like the gods - to know good and evil. If we applied your standard even Einstein would have to be ignored because he wasn't always right. Of course, we'd be ignoring you too. You've made more mistakes in this thread than the mistakes in Genesis you're griping about.

    Um no, I said the Garden of Eden represents the evolution of the human consciousness and you immediately started griping about the order of appearance of life forms during the 6 days of creation.

    Which is just more blather... It doesn't take a genius or a religious person to read the story of the Garden and see it as describing a change in our consciousness, the intellectual evolution of man from animal (and hominid). The science says this happened within the past 75-100 kya and oral and written traditions from all over the world speak of a time when we departed from the animals. That is not a denial of evolution, but that was your assertion.

    No, the firmament divided the waters. I didn't say it could be seen or was the sky after the impact. I didn't say much of anything about it other than it divided the waters. I did say the lights in our sky were a product of the Earth being given new orbital characteristics, you know, the seasons and signs observable from Earth. I notice you didn't quote me, why is that? Where did I say the firmament was the altered sky of the newly born Earth? Use an actual quote this time.

    My God, you just ramble on and on about nothing. I haven't defined Heaven/firmament, I said what Genesis says - it divided the waters. You just make stuff up and proceed to rant rather than actually address my arguments.

    Thats nice, but Genesis does call the firmament "Heaven" so it aint talking about the universe. The Akkadian or Sumerian defined Heaven as "the hammered-out bracelet" and that was written long before anything about a layer of crystal.

    The knowledge of good and evil - and Genesis told us long before Darwin or modern evolutionary theory.

    You haven't even shown where my interpretation is wrong and now you're accusing me of being dishonest? I'm not the one using strawmen, thats your game. All this time and you still haven't explained why the story in the Garden does not reference a change in human consciousness... All this time and nothing but blather...
     
  4. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    19,907
    Location:
    the golf course
    Babbler

    But how did all that water vapor stay in so close to the Sun to become part of a planet? Outgassing occurred when the crust was forming 4.5 bya and again around 4 bya when the collision occurred.

    Meteorites have been dated back 4.5 bya, no terrestrial rocks though. They go back 3.9 bya...

    Warpus

    Yes, eyewitness accounts. You know, our ancestors from 100,000 years ago or less interacting with hominids, erectus, archaic humans, Neandertals, etc... These people undoubtedly kept oral traditions of these contacts with other, more primitive looking humans.
     
  5. Babbler

    Babbler Deity

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2002
    Messages:
    5,399
    IIRC, it originates from the mantle via volcanic eruption.

    That is incorrect.

    Really? I doubt that oral history could record those stories with any fedelity, have them (relatively) unaltered while being record as creation stories, and have those stories survive to the present.
     
  6. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2005
    Messages:
    51,365
    Location:
    Stamford Bridge
    Yeah, I was about to say.. An oral tradition spanning 100,000 years?

    Have you ever played chinese telephone, Berzerker? Do you know how much time 100,000 years is?

    Besides, would proto-humans even understand that the Neanderthals were their cousins, and that they evolved from the same species? Would they know what evolution is or how it works? No.. these beings would be just another animal, roaming the countryside, to our ancestors.

    Your eye-witness account theory doesn't make much sense.

    The fact that we evolved from lower species wasn't discovered until. well.. you know.. Darwin.
     
  7. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    19,907
    Location:
    the golf course
    Perfection

    The trail of debris is the actual evidence, and last I heard there's a bunch of rock out there flying around. Wanna bet we find a trail if we look?

    But the solar wind "de-gassed" the inner solar system. Thats the explanation I've heard for the rocky inner planets. I understood the reason Jupiter gathered up so much gas was because the solar wind weakened out there past Mars and stuff slowed and froze.

    It should ;) Its very curious that the Earth is out of whack more than any other planet aside from Pluto. I think all the other planets are closer to the solar equator.

    But all the planets have been getting hit by debris over time, and aside from a relative few earth crossing asteroids with elliptical orbits taking them outward, what is the evidence of a collision in our orbit? Hmm...aint the asteroid belt a trail of debris? I wonder if anyone has charted the asteroids and tried to pinpoint an orbital range for their origin.

    Are there any patterns with the Earth removed from this location and placed elsewhere?

    Unless the planet aint there any more. Is this why the theory requires hardly no change in Earth's orbit? Because the Earth has swept up the evidence of the collision?

    Okay, I'm familiar with that. But thats our collision. One theory says the Moon formed from this collision, but it looks to me like the Moon was present when the Earth got smacked. The serious damage done to the Moon occurred on one side, the side facing us. Was the giant impact theory devised to explain the Moon?

    Why does the theory make the assumption the impactor was at a LaGrange point? Where did the impactor go? Surely it would have survived such a glancing low velocity impact.

    Ah, okay, so the big impact at 4 bya did not result in the Moon. I swear the docu I was watching attributed the formation of the Moon to the 4 bya impact. That timeline works better since it has the Moon present at the time of the 2nd collision.

    I understand some suspected comets have ceased outgassing. But they outgas as they approach Mars, so comets following highly elliptical orbits only come by once every few thousand years (or even longer). And how do we know comets cant recoup lost gases while flying around the outer solar system? And why the preponderance of retrograde long term orbits? Is the disturbance following a retrograde orbit? Take your time, I gotta take some time off from Stewie ;)
     
  8. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    19,907
    Location:
    the golf course
    Babbler

    Yes, but the Earth was forming in close to the Sun. The solar wind supposedly de-gassed the inner solar system.

    Cool... something else for me to research. But it says the zircon was found in 3.9 bya magma so the crystal may have survived the impact but not its surroundings. I expect the Earth did have a crust going even further back (as I have said in this thread), but the 4 bya impact wiped out nearly all evidence from that time.

    And yet we have the oral traditions and written myths describing early human contacts with more primitive peoples, even "ape men" according to the Zulu.

    Warpus

    Sacred oral traditions were handed down with a bit more care than some game ;) But while I agree there's plenty of time for the details to mutate the story relates the same thing - our ancestors had contacts with more primitive creatures and now we know this is true. And the story could have started 100 kya but the contacts didn't end there. We were living alongside Neandertals as recently as 35 k and erectus much much more recently if Flores Man is in fact from the erectus line.

    An animal that looked alot like them... But the myths still say we were more like the animals and became human.

    Then you explain how the Zulu have a myth about interacting with ape men. All those stories of our emergence from the animal world relate an evolutionary fact. You deny this because it was so long ago, but we have the stories nonetheless.
     
  9. Simple Simon

    Simple Simon Simpleton

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2007
    Messages:
    1,697
    Location:
    Simpletown
    right the first time, wrong the second :p
    You said evolution - care to answer my questions now?

    And how do explain how they can be eyewitnesses when they, given your logic, at that time still were animals? or are you claiming that Adam wrote the Genesis?

    Science! That's how!

    Perhaps you do not understand the principles, so let me explain: first, you need to define what you talk about. 'good' and 'bad' (or 'evil') are terms that have no universal meaning. You seem to use them in a sense close to 'moral' and 'immoral'. I assume, therefore, that you want to claim that animals have no morals, while humans do.

    Next, we find us a test subject, and then design a test. Has been done umpteen times. Premack et al. comes to mind, or Tomasello. And others - Pepperberg, e.g.

    Then, we test - and if you bother to actually read up on the research on animal consciousness you'll find that a surprising number of species is capable of understanding without being taught that taking things from others is not nice.

    Suffices for me - but I know you'll now twist your original statement the 'yellow-black' way :p

    Would you please care to prove this? All I see is you again reading a bunch of stuff into a mistranslation of an old text.
    Irrelevant - care to finally define 'good' and 'bad'?


    You made a claim - that Genesis shows us how its writers understood evolution. I have just shown you that you do not even know what would be required for this claim.


    Well, as you by now should well know, this is not what really happened! So Genesis makes false claims: that earth was at first water-covered, and that land appeared later, and that all this was caused by a god person.

    Refuted - next? Maybe you'd bother to answer my questions?
     
  10. Simple Simon

    Simple Simon Simpleton

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2007
    Messages:
    1,697
    Location:
    Simpletown
    Not proto-humans! Both Homo sapiens and Homo neaderthalensis are fully human. Unless you want to redefine 'Homo'.

    And yes, they might very well think those bleached out, huge guys and gals are human - albeit primitive! Possibly the way Victorian British saw Africans. Just that in the sapiens-neanderthalensis case, the skin pigmentation went th other way: the 'brutes' were white :lol:

    Well, not quite! There were a bunch of others who got to that point and shied away, e.g. Charles Darwin's grandfather! They simply shut up when their religious beliefs were in doubt, stopped their investigations and musings, and turned to other subjects. Much as Darwin did, too, burying himself in mollusks and other stuff.
     
  11. Simple Simon

    Simple Simon Simpleton

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2007
    Messages:
    1,697
    Location:
    Simpletown
    You seem to have a problem with the type of sources you use: old tales with no scientific outset and content, and TV documentaries. Guess what: if you ask someone who works in a certain field about a docu about that field, he can usually tell you 5 to 10 serious mistakes in a second. That's for a good docu. Don't get me started about some of the stuff that is produced by ignoring the entire professional community working on the stuff and then called 'docu'. :lol:
     
  12. brennan

    brennan Argumentative Brit

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    9,023
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Worthing, Southern England
    Uh, well the traditional view is that God created everything. Correct me if i'm wrong. Perhaps you'd like to give us your own personal slant on the Creation?
    Since when? Why should we be discussing what appears to be a totally unique interpretation of Genesis, rather than the one that has prevailed amongst Jews and Christians for thousands of years?
    As has been pointed out, this is an attempt to make the story fit established scientific facts. This is not an interpretation the original writer(s) would have recognised so why should we be addressing it?
    And from this total lack of information you infer what precisely? I infer that they didn't have a clue, and the conclusion you came to is ludicrous.
     
  13. Leifmk

    Leifmk Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,049
    Location:
    Outskirts of Oslo, Norway
    Polar bears? They're certainly large enough, and they have evolved to fit a top predator niche in a climate which didn't exist during the last interglacial period (i.e. 110 - 130 thousand years before present).
     
  14. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2005
    Messages:
    24,679
    Location:
    High above the ice
    A climate which won't exist in the future and as a result they are now drowning by scores. That's what you get for sloppy last minute evolving.
     
  15. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Messages:
    27,779
    Location:
    Not on your side
    That humans fit anatomically among the great apes was recognized long before Darwin. Linnaeus even put some of the non-human apes into the genus Homo.
     
  16. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Messages:
    27,779
    Location:
    Not on your side
    The definition of Homo isn't "fully human". You may want to consider all members of the genus to be "fully human", but it's no more definitionally necessary than it is to consider a donkey (Equus asinus) "fully horse".
     
  17. Eran of Arcadia

    Eran of Arcadia Stormin' Mormon Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    23,090
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Sunshine and Lettuce Capital of the World
    That is not (I think) true either. Darwin didn't come up with evolution, he just figured out that it happened by natural selection. And not everyone was terrified of contradicting religion - Darwin didn't invent atheism either.
     
  18. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Messages:
    27,779
    Location:
    Not on your side
    All the planets are off the solar equator by 3-7 deg.

    In fact, it would make more sense to say it's the solar equator that's off the plane of the solar system by about 6 deg.
     
  19. Perfection

    Perfection The Great Head.

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    49,824
    Location:
    Salisbury Plain
    Nope, it was in Earth's orbit. Planets by definition clear thier orbits of debris. Yes, there are some random rocks in Earth's orbit but they're in transient orbits and given a few million years they'll get flung elsewhere.

    Venus Earth and Mars all have substantial atmospheres so it's pretty obvious solar wind can't preclude the existance of an atmosphere. Here's the deal, solar wind prevented the formation of large hydrogen-laden planets (gas giants) they didn't prevent the mostly heavy element (carbon nitrogen oxygen etc.) atmopheres from forming via vulcanic outgassing.

    Dude get the memo, Pluto's not a planet. Now Earth's inclination is highest but not by much and I'm not going to speculate why when it's relatively minor to giant impact and may be accounted for by other things.

    I'm hella busy and have to go now, I will respond to the rest later.
     
  20. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Messages:
    27,779
    Location:
    Not on your side
    The Earth's inclination is the highest because it happens to be off the invariable plane in the opposite direction from the Sun's equator whereas most of the other planets are off in the same direction. This is not a permanent arrangement - the orbits rotate with respect to one another on timescales of 100,000s and millions of years (which is very swiftly compared to a timedepth of 4.5Ga) and at other times other planets will have the highest inclination compared to the solar equator.

    (The invariable plane is the plane perpendicular to the vector sum of the angular momenta of the solar system. It's identical with Jupiter's orbital plane to within half a degree, but off the solar equator by about 6 degrees. Odd as it may sound, the Sun's contribution to the total angular momentum is tiny, whereas Jupiter accounts for about 60%.)
     

Share This Page