Abaddon
Deity
yeah, i love it when you get 14 year olf yoiks posting here and throwing their I.Q. around thinking anyone would be fooled or even care!
The Official Perfection KOs Creationism Thread Part Two: The Empiricists Strike Back!
- Thread starter Perfection
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CurtSibling
ENEMY ACE™
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The return of the battle! 
I just want ot point out that creationists can indicate as much 'scientific/religious study'
as they want, and produce as much 'intelligent design evidence' (cough!) as they want...
But at the end of the day, the whole concept is still bedtime stories written by ancient
cultures...On the fair and balanced side, evolution is only a theory too. Although it was
written by learned men, not ill-educated hebrew shepherds and shamans.
And why don't christians use the Nordic, African or Aztec creation myths?
I just want ot point out that creationists can indicate as much 'scientific/religious study'
as they want, and produce as much 'intelligent design evidence' (cough!) as they want...
But at the end of the day, the whole concept is still bedtime stories written by ancient
cultures...On the fair and balanced side, evolution is only a theory too. Although it was
written by learned men, not ill-educated hebrew shepherds and shamans.
And why don't christians use the Nordic, African or Aztec creation myths?
CurtSibling
ENEMY ACE™
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 29,455
slozenger said:
In that case, why are you here?
(j/k)
Xenocrates
Deity
Evolution consists of offspring inheriting modification that they can, in turn, pass on to their offspring. In other words, the ‘Intelligent designer’ has to be persistently involved in decision making at every moment of reproduction (and life) to control this process. Therefore the ID God is really the God of evolution. There’s no iron in them thar hills, but there sure is plenty of irony!
If I have a non-viable child God needed to decide (since population distribution is the key to evolution) that my child wouldn’t live to reproduce. In other words God distributes reproductive success like he used to distribute forgiveness and passage to heaven.
ID is not only un-parsimonious, but it is completely alien to Christianity as we knew and ‘loved’ it!
Since reproduction depends foremostly upon survival, ID requires God to decide who will get girlfriends, who will die in their sleep etc etc. So much for God giving us free will.
OK so god doesn’t need to be involved at every stage, if he set the system up with evolution in mind from the very start. But if so, ID and standard evolution will be indistinguishable. ID and 'social Darwinism' will also be indistinguishable.
If evolution is built in to God’s universe in the way that ID implies, then the major cause of death, war and disease etc, must also be part of his plan. An ID-sympathetic president could use it as a reason to invade another country or commit genocide.
That’s why I think that ID will take us to hell. I hope that an ID’er will drop in to clarify these issues.
If I have a non-viable child God needed to decide (since population distribution is the key to evolution) that my child wouldn’t live to reproduce. In other words God distributes reproductive success like he used to distribute forgiveness and passage to heaven.
ID is not only un-parsimonious, but it is completely alien to Christianity as we knew and ‘loved’ it!
Since reproduction depends foremostly upon survival, ID requires God to decide who will get girlfriends, who will die in their sleep etc etc. So much for God giving us free will.
OK so god doesn’t need to be involved at every stage, if he set the system up with evolution in mind from the very start. But if so, ID and standard evolution will be indistinguishable. ID and 'social Darwinism' will also be indistinguishable.
If evolution is built in to God’s universe in the way that ID implies, then the major cause of death, war and disease etc, must also be part of his plan. An ID-sympathetic president could use it as a reason to invade another country or commit genocide.
That’s why I think that ID will take us to hell. I hope that an ID’er will drop in to clarify these issues.
Dragonlord
Fantasy Warlord
CurtSibling said:The return of the battle!
But at the end of the day, the whole concept is still bedtime stories written by ancient
cultures...On the fair and balanced side, evolution is only a theory too. Although it was
written by learned men, not ill-educated hebrew shepherds and shamans.
While I'm on the same side of the argument regarding creationism, your reasoning is faulty IMO: you're using the same kind of authoritarian argument the creationists like to use, weighing the merits of a theory on the supposed merits of those proposing it.
On that basis, the creationists have just as much right to their beliefs as you do: they prefer to believe someone whose authority supposedly comes from God. You prefer to believe someone whose authority comes from a university diploma.
Not a very scientific attitude.
A theory must be verifiable and provable to be accepted - and for me the evidence is clearly for evolution, while the creationists equally clearly are trying to make the world fit their views, whether the facts fit or not.
I don't blame them though, since their reasoning is just a simple sublimation of the survival instinct.
It goes like this:
Evolution makes God unnecessary ---> it raises doubts about God's existance ---> if God doesn't exist, what about an afterlife? ---> Eeeek! I might really cease to exist after dying! ---> I refuse to entertain that thought, I want to live forever! (here's where the survival instinct comes in) ---> (kneejerk reaction) Evolution MUST be wrong, let's see where we can discredit it.
All very understandable, but still just wishful thinking, not science...
Abaddon
Deity
CurtSibling said:In that case, why are you here?
(j/k)
Ha, i'll have you know i have an I.Q. of 163 and drive a Ferrari, so
Also i sleep with sexy ladys 34 times everyday.
[/yoik]
Isn't asking why christians don't follow another religions beliefs on creation a little redundant?!?
Don't get many Quesicotyl (speeling?) worshipping Christians nowadays
I have an IQ of 297 and I can shoot flames out of my arse, and I don't drive but I can run the mile in 3 mins 56 secs do 700 sit ups and 100 pressups and 60 pull ups. Men want to be me women want me to be in them. Who am I? Who cares
To be honest asking creationist christians points of views on anything scientific is a waste of time if they can delude themselves that much they'll believe just about anything and thus anything they tell you is probably spurious or based on questionable logic.
To be honest asking creationist christians points of views on anything scientific is a waste of time if they can delude themselves that much they'll believe just about anything and thus anything they tell you is probably spurious or based on questionable logic.
Abaddon
Deity
The problem is, while there are still holes within the Evolution theory, and you have to stress it is a theory. Its as damned close an explanation as we have got now, and goes a hell of a lot futher to rationally explain the world around us than Creationism does.
Xenocrates
Deity
Sidhe said:I have an IQ of 297 and I can shoot flames out of my arse, and I don't drive but I can run the mile in 3 mins 56 secs do 700 sit ups and 100 pressups and 60 pull ups. Men want to be me women want me to be in them. Who am I? Who cares
To be honest asking creationist christians points of views on anything scientific is a waste of time if they can delude themselves that much they'll believe just about anything and thus anything they tell you is probably spurious or based on questionable logic.
That my friends, is the proof for evolution that we have been waiting for! If only Slozenger and Sidhe could reproduce and pass these traits on that is.
How much are the tickets to watch the reproduction attempt being made?
Abaddon
Deity
hmmm, how about i reproduce with a partner of my choice, and then selecivly breed my offspring with Sidhees? Makes more sence to me, and also widens the gene pool.. dont want inbreeding to be too intense. Keep the feral vitality. 
Xenocrates said:That my friends, is the proof for evolution that we have been waiting for! If only Slozenger and Sidhe could reproduce and pass these traits on that is.
How much are the tickets to watch the reproduction attempt being made?
The problem with that is that intelligence doesn't seem to be a trait that gets selected for much in today's society. How many intelligent nerds don't get any? How many Jerry Springer guests have multiple kids? What's that going to do to future generations?
As for the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which is what the last thread ended on, I'm doing some more reading. I think I need better definitions of 'order', 'disorder', 'entropy', etc. And sources that don't conflict with each other for preference.
liquid fire
Warlord
Dragonlord said:
One requirement you're missing here is falsifiable. A theory must be capable of being proven incorrect. Evolution is: If we see new species being placed on Earth by the hand of god, the theory's wrong.
On the other hand, ID or creationism generally is not falsifiable, as they rest on a singular historical event (god acted once, but does not necessarily continue to so act), not a testable recurring event. Therefore it is not a theory (could be true, but still not a theory, instead call it a belief).
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
If you really want to grok it, I'd recommend buying/stealing/borrowing an introductory college-level book on thermodynamics.sanabas said:
The Last Conformist said:
Yeah, I think I might do that. I have one physics textbook around here somewhere, don't know how much detail it goes into though. The chem, bio & maths texts definitely don't bother with it.
I suspect I'm getting hung-up on a fairly basic concept, which is causing misunderstandings down the line.
And BTW, I think you're the first person here I've seen use 'grok'.
I am amazed that the chemistry text book does not mention it, my knowledge of it comes from my A-level chemistry, and I thought that covered the basics of it pretty well. What level are these books?sanabas said:Yeah, I think I might do that. I have one physics textbook around here somewhere, don't know how much detail it goes into though. The chem, bio & maths texts definitely don't bother with it.
I suspect I'm getting hung-up on a fairly basic concept, which is causing misunderstandings down the line.
And BTW, I think you're the first person here I've seen use 'grok'.
Basicly, entropy = change in disorder of a system. It can also be thought of as the number of degrees of freedom in the system, or (from [1]) "how much energy is spread out in a process, or how widely spread out it becomes at a specific temperature."
I found the links below usefull. As usual the wiki one [2] was pretty good, and [1] has some examples that MAY make it clearer.
[1] http://www.entropysite.com/students_approach.html
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy
skadistic
Caomhanach
Not all mutations are for just survival. My bird is a mutation. It is white and yellow as opposed to mostly grey like the base pop. of her species. Now this mutation is breed in to the species by humans. Does it make her more likely to survive in the wild? Probaly not. In the bird world its the more atractive male that gets the girl so her being a sexy beast doesn't matter much.
A good area to study evolution is the lemers of Madagasgar. It shows well how adaptation by way of mutation can create a lemer to fill all the niches of an ecosystem. Its alot like how Darwin noticed the birds on diffrent islands mutated diffrent types of beaks to accomadate for the seeds avalible to them.
Are there any examples of a documented shift in a species that can be called evolution since people have been studying it as a sience?
A good area to study evolution is the lemers of Madagasgar. It shows well how adaptation by way of mutation can create a lemer to fill all the niches of an ecosystem. Its alot like how Darwin noticed the birds on diffrent islands mutated diffrent types of beaks to accomadate for the seeds avalible to them.
Are there any examples of a documented shift in a species that can be called evolution since people have been studying it as a sience?
Perfection
The Great Head.
Leifmk
Deity
Dragonlord said:
This is, to put it plainly, not currently a popular line of thought in the philosophy of science. At all.
These days we do not speak of "verifying" or "proving" a theory in order to accept it. Instead, we repeatedly subject our theories to any and all tests that may falsify them, and reject (replace or modify) them if this happens. In order for a theory to be accepted it must at least be somewhat coherent and possible to subject to tests, plus of course it must not yet have been falsified; that is, it needs to fit the relevant observations.
"Accepted" here always carries the meaning "accepted conditionally, subject to future falsification" as opposed to "accepted as eternal truth" -- though many theories have been so thoroughly tested that few people think there's any reasonable chance of falsifying them. The big picture of biological evolution is one such (though to be sure, there's lots of room for modification in the details).
"Scientific Creationism" as well as "Intelligent Design", in the various forms in which they have appeared so far, either fail to even work as theories that can be tested, or have long since been falsified.
Abaddon
Deity
I like the nylon bug- would i have liked more info on the ecology side of things- like it terrorising the Chinese Clothing industry, or being used to clean up mass spillages of knicker elastic
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