The Official Perfection KOs Creationism Thread Part Two: The Empiricists Strike Back!

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ironduck said:
Do you know that god is capable of pre-existence?

Ok, maybe "self-existence" is more correct than "pre-existence", ie He doesn't require a cause. Mormons believe that both God and the matter from which the universe are formed are self-existing. But at any rate, it seems to me that if God can exist without a cause or designer, then so can the universe.
 
Eran of Arcadia said:
Ok, maybe "self-existence" is more correct than "pre-existence", ie He doesn't require a cause. Mormons believe that both God and the matter from which the universe are formed are self-existing. But at any rate, it seems to me that if God can exist without a cause or designer, then so can the universe.

Do mormons have a concept of a beginning of god or anything that relates to that?

All the creation myths I can think of have a very fuzzy description of the 'beginning of the beginning'.
 
ironduck said:
Do mormons have a concept of a beginning of god or anything that relates to that?

All the creation myths I can think of have a very fuzzy description of the 'beginning of the beginning'.

As far as I know, God has been around forever. If He didn't, something has. We believe that the Genesis account only refers to the creation of the earth (and that in purely symbolic terms), and clearly the earth had a beginning.
 
Here's a new hypothesis by myself :cool:

What if, God imagined biomorphs in a way similar to Dawkins but with far greater complexity.

The universe might be one biomorph. God saw all possible biomorphs (a near infinite number) and picked the best one - bang!

Before you ask, you're part of that biomorph.
 
The creationist is back! (me)

Evolutionists answer me this: How come there aren't hundreds of obvious fossils of half ape-half man? There should be since there are hundreds of dinosaur fossils! There have been a few hoaxes but nothing solid. Where are they????
 
diablodelmar said:
The creationist is back! (me)

Evolutionists answer me this: How come there aren't hundreds of obvious fossils of half ape-half man? There should be since there are hundreds of dinosaur fossils! There have been a few hoaxes but nothing solid. Where are they????
There are! There are loads of fossils of steps in the evolution of modern man that are far closer to man than apes.

There are not as many as there are of dinosaurs, but then dinosaurs were the dominant group for many millions of years. We are just a liitle upstart species compared to them.

And even with that, there are some that there are no known full fossils, eg. the T.Rex killer from Jurasic park 3, cannot remember the name but the one good fossil was destroyed in the allied bombing of germany and there have been only fragments found since.
 
diablodelmar said:
The creationist is back! (me)

Evolutionists answer me this: How come there aren't hundreds of obvious fossils of half ape-half man? There should be since there are hundreds of dinosaur fossils! There have been a few hoaxes but nothing solid. Where are they????

So Mr. 'I am back and ignore many long posts' - why don't you read what was answered before making sweeping demands?
 
Samson said:
There are! There are loads of fossils of steps in the evolution of modern man that are far closer to man than apes.

There are not as many as there are of dinosaurs, but then dinosaurs were the dominant group for many millions of years. We are just a liitle upstart species compared to them.

And even with that, there are some that there are no known full fossils, eg. the T.Rex killer from Jurasic park 3, cannot remember the name but the one good fossil was destroyed in the allied bombing of germany and there have been only fragments found since.

Samson, which "fossil steps" are you refering to? There has been nothing but hoaxes or mistakes so far.
 
diablodelmar said:
Samson, which "fossil steps" are you refering to? There has been nothing but hoaxes or mistakes so far.

you know, this is interesting: you demand proof, but make claims you never back up......

how about you now bring proof that all those find were 'hoaxes or mistakes'?
 
Here you are. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html
Sahelanthropus tchadensis
Ardipithecus ramidus
Australopithecus anamensis
Australopithecus afarensis
Kenyanthropus platyops
Australopithecus africanus
Australopithecus garhi
Australopithecus aethiopicus
Australopithecus robustus
Australopithecus boisei
Homo habilis
Homo georgicus
Homo erectus
Homo ergaster
Homo antecessor
Homo heidelbergensis
Homo neanderthalensis
Homo floresiensis
Homo sapiens

Now it's your turn to give some answers instead of making drive-by posts. You can start with defining "information".
 
diablodelmar said:
Samson, which "fossil steps" are you refering to? There has been nothing but hoaxes or mistakes so far.
Sahelanthropus tchadensis
Ardipithecus ramidus
Australopithecus anamensis
Australopithecus afarensis
Kenyanthropus platyops
Australopithecus africanus
Australopithecus garhi
Australopithecus aethiopicus
Australopithecus robustus
Australopithecus boisei
Homo habilis
Homo georgicus
Homo erectus
Homo ergaster
Homo antecessor
Homo heidelbergensis
Homo neanderthalensis
Homo floresiensis
Homo sapiens

List from http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html
 
stormbind said:
Here's a new hypothesis by myself :cool:

What if, God imagined biomorphs in a way similar to Dawkins but with far greater complexity.

The universe might be one biomorph. God saw all possible biomorphs (a near infinite number) and picked the best one - bang!

Before you ask, you're part of that biomorph.
No offense, but this is just stupid. There's no way the human organism is the best possible biomorph for any sense of "best" within earshot of the everyday meaning of that term.

@Diablodelmar: Bear in mind that most of the species in Erik's list are represented by many individual fossils. Many researchers would further recognize at least two more species: Ardipithecus kadabba and Homo rudolphensis. OTOH, many would merge some of the species on the list - in particular, H. antecessor doesn't seem to have many adherents as a separate species, but this doesn't cut down the fossil count.
 
Neanderthal Man (homo neanderthalensis)

In about 1860, about the time that Darwin published his book on evolution, the first few fragments (strange isn't it? that we only found them once people started claiming we'd evolved) of Neanderthal Man were found in the Neaderthal Valley, in Germany. They were a lot like humans except they had flatter skulls and they (or rather, one of them) walked hunched over - indicating that they were half evolved into humans.

A famous anatomist, Dr. Rudolph Virchow, found out that the primitive features of the Neaderthal were due to the fact that the specimens found all had rickets, a disease of the bones which deforms them because they are very weak. The one that walked hunched over, also had (clinically proven) arthritis which forced him to walk bent over. What further proves this is that not all of the Neadethals were hunched over in this position. Furthermore, several scientists showed that if a neaderthal was given treatment for rickets, a shave, haircut and a shower he would look just like any normal human being.

Nebraska Man (Hesperopithecus)

Amusingly, the Nebraska man theory was formed from the discovery of a single tooth (!?!) in west Nebraska. Leading scientists and experts declared, in their desperation for evidence, that it had certain characteristics that lead them to present it as evidence that man evolved from ape.

A mere few years after the massive uproar, the rest of the skeleton was found; that of a pig.

Does one's respect for Evolutionists go up or down at this point?

Similar discoveries were made to disprove the Ramapithecus when it was found to be an orangutan.
 
Why are all these creationists the same?

They're all fed their propaganda and not a single one actually wants to learn anything. I suppose they're afraid that learning might prove them wrong which could potentially shake their belief in god. And since they've been indoctrinated that a lack of belief in god leads to hell, that's enough reason never to want to learn anything.
 
diablodelmar said:
In about 1860, about the time that Darwin published his book on evolution, the first few fragments (strange isn't it? that we only found them once people started claiming we'd evolved)
Strange isn't it, we only started looking for them and recognizing them once people started thinking we'd evolved. :rolleyes:
I mean, next you'll be saying that it's strange we never found any evidence of atoms until very recently, and so the Four Elements theory should be taught in chemistry.


diablodelmar said:
A famous anatomist, Dr. Rudolph Virchow, found out that the primitive features of the Neaderthal were due to the fact that the specimens found all had rickets, a disease of the bones which deforms them because they are very weak
Wrong. Google for "neanderthal rickets" for several rebuttals. Here's a good one: http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Neanderthals_were_humans_with_rickets
Diseases such as rickets and arthritis, while capable of producing deformations in the bone, could not have consistently altered the femur-to-tibia length ratio to a number less than 1, which is one of the hallmarks of Neanderthal Man (Homo Sapiens, by contrast, has a femur-to tibia ratio of nearly exactly 1). Disease also could not account for the numerous differences between the skulls of Neanderthal and modern man, such as larger teeth, brow ridges, and smaller brain volume. Also, since the first discoveries, several other fossil remains of Neanderthal have been uncovered, some of which were relatively healthy at the time of death, and yet still exhibit the basic discrepancies that clearly mark them as Neanderthal.
And here's another: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC051_1.html
Virchow, who first reported the possibility of rickets in a Neanderthal, did not cite it alone. He said the fossil had rickets in early childhood, head injuries in middle age, and arthritis in old age. It is doubtful that an entire population suffered these same afflictions.


diablodelmar said:
Furthermore, several scientists showed that if a neaderthal was given treatment for rickets, a shave, haircut and a shower he would look just like any normal human being.
Would this be the Dr. Moreau type of "several scientists"? Or the nonexistant type? I have a hard time understanding how they could show anything about a showered Neanderthal. :lol:
Either way, such a sourceless comment is valueless.


diablodelmar said:
Nebraska Man (Hesperopithecus)
Straw man. Nobody mentioned it. I don't suppose you'd consider Elohim City an argument with regards to your credibility, would you?


diablodelmar said:
Amusingly, the Nebraska man theory was formed from the discovery of a single tooth (!?!) in west Nebraska. Leading scientists and experts declared, in their desperation for evidence, that it had certain characteristics that lead them to present it as evidence that man evolved from ape.

A mere few years after the massive uproar, the rest of the skeleton was found; that of a pig.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_nebraska.html
"Leading scientists and experts" declared nothing of the sort.

diablodelmar said:
Similar discoveries were made to disprove the Ramapithecus when it was found to be an orangutan.
I've already given you the link that comments on this. It's here. Since I am sure you will not read it, here is the excerpt.
The time of the split between humans and living apes used to be thought to have occurred 15 to 20 million years ago, or even up to 30 or 40 million years ago. Some apes occurring within that time period, such as Ramapithecus, used to be considered as hominids, and possible ancestors of humans. Later fossil finds indicated that Ramapithecus was more closely related to the orang-utan, and new biochemical evidence indicated that the last common ancestor of hominids and apes occurred between 5 and 10 million years ago, and probably in the lower end of that range (Lewin 1987). Ramapithecus therefore is no longer considered a hominid.

And the thing is... even if everything you said here was correct, you would still have a hundred more fossils to disprove. I suggest you stop attacking strawmen, or I'll start harping on the fact that the Church sold indulgences.

Now, please answer my posts about information and duplicated genes.
 
ironduck said:
Why are all these creationists the same?

They're all fed their propaganda and not a single one actually wants to learn anything. I suppose they're afraid that learning might prove them wrong which could potentially shake their belief in god. And since they've been indoctrinated that a lack of belief in god leads to hell, that's enough reason never to want to learn anything.
Maybe because... once they learn some things, they stop being creationists? Usually the definition of creationist involves them not having learned anything. (about evolution, that is.)
 
diablodelmar said:
Neanderthal Man (homo neanderthalensis)

In about 1860, about the time that Darwin published his book on evolution, the first few fragments (strange isn't it? that we only found them once people started claiming we'd evolved) of Neanderthal Man were found in the Neaderthal Valley, in Germany. They were a lot like humans except they had flatter skulls and they (or rather, one of them) walked hunched over - indicating that they were half evolved into humans.

A famous anatomist, Dr. Rudolph Virchow, found out that the primitive features of the Neaderthal were due to the fact that the specimens found all had rickets, a disease of the bones which deforms them because they are very weak. The one that walked hunched over, also had (clinically proven) arthritis which forced him to walk bent over. What further proves this is that not all of the Neadethals were hunched over in this position. Furthermore, several scientists showed that if a neaderthal was given treatment for rickets, a shave, haircut and a shower he would look just like any normal human being.
Interesting mix of truth and falsehoods.

Indeed, neanderthals did not walk hunched over, unless bent with age. No, neanderthalism isn't caused by rickets. Neanderthals didn't have weak bones - they had big, thick and strong bones, paired with massive muscles; quite the opposite of people with rickets. More here.

A neanderthal with modern clothes and a faddish haircut certainly wouldn't look like "any normal human" being - the weak chin, heavy jaws, massive browridges, and stout, short but heavy and broad built would make for a quite distinct appearance.

Oh, and the original Neandertal find was in 1856; three years before the publication of Origin of Species.
Nebraska Man (Hesperopithecus)

Amusingly, the Nebraska man theory was formed from the discovery of a single tooth (!?!) in west Nebraska. Leading scientists and experts declared, in their desperation for evidence, that it had certain characteristics that lead them to present it as evidence that man evolved from ape.
That's a lie. Some leading anatomists (notably Osborn) did think the tooth belong to an anthropoid (human, ape or monkey), but nobody claimed is as evidence of human descent from apes (which was already well established at that point).
A mere few years after the massive uproar, the rest of the skeleton was found; that of a pig.
Simply not true. What was found was evidence suggesting the tooth actually belonged to a peccary. No material confidently referable to the same individual was found.

It should perhaps be mentioned that pig and peccary teeth are quite similar to those of humans and apes, and that the Nebraska tooth was quite worn.
Similar discoveries were made to disprove the Ramapithecus when it was found to be an orangutan.
It was indeed widely believed that "Ramapithecus" was close to the human ancestry, a position which nobody would take today. Neither, however, is it an orangutan - its now known to belong to the Sivapithecus, a genus that likely includes the lineal ancestor of the orangutan, but is a modern orangutan no more than any Australopithecus is a modern human.


So, to take stock, you've got two honest mistakes you can't even report correctly, and a mixture of lies and irrelevancies about neanderthals. Do you have anything about the other species that have been mentioned here, all much more relevant than "Ramapithecus" and Hesperopithecus.
 
Did I just get crossposted with twice? :hmm: And did people repeat my links both times? :lol:
 
one of Erik's pieces said:
the numerous differences between the skulls of Neanderthal and modern man, such as larger teeth, brow ridges, and smaller brain volume.
This would seem to indicate that neanderthals had smaller brain volumes than modern humans. In actuality, the opposite is the case - the average cranial volume of neanderthals was somewhat larger than that of moderns.
 
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