The Offtopicgrad Soviet: A Place to Discuss All Things Red

[aelf]

Aelf--gtg. Another day but quickly what does climate change have to do with this particular conversation?

It's not climate change specifically. As I understand it, climate change is only part of a bigger problem.

The point is that capitalism is not fully capable of tackling issues that lie outside it's remit - that of mostly short to medium-term calculation of economic benefit frequently carried out at the individual level.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

In the "Where We Trash Proletarian Solidarity in Favor of our Own Petit Bourgeois Moralism" thread, or whatever, I put forward that Cuba was the most democratic nation on the planet.

After we hosted Yamila Gonzalez Ferrer, National Secretary of the National Union of Cuban Jurists, I am thoroughly convinced that Cuba is the most democratic and most just nation on Earth.

Cuba has:
-- 90.88% of the voting aged population (ages 16 and up) who votes.
-- ballot boxes are symbolically guarded by children
-- The Communist Party promotes no candidates.
-- any citizen over 18 can run for the National Assembly
-- Any citizen over 16 can run for.municipal office.
-- average (mean) age of member of National assembly is 48.
-- National Assembly is 48% women, 38% black/ mixed race.
-- no jail time for under-16 citizens
-- no private practice, for-profit law firms
-- a low recidivism rate
-- of a population of 11 million, 8 million are members of the Committees for Defense of the Revolution

 

[Agent327]

Makes one wonder why hundreds of thousands Cubans have fled this paradise.

By the way, since when do 'democracies' lock up political dissidents?

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Cubans defect from Cuba because they can't find a doctor who will kill them, (imo only)

Voter Turnout, Netherlands (2012) = 74.56%

Number of Dutch people murdered by Euthanasia = 1 in 30!

* *Around 3 per cent of all deaths in the Netherlands are now by euthanasia*
* *The country last year introduced mobile euthanasia units*
* *In 2002 it became the first country since Nazi Germany to legalise it*

 

[Ajidica]

Please, don't ever quote again from the Daily Heil.

If you want to believe that a country lead by two mummified revolutionaries is the most democratic in the world, be my guest. Just please don't quote serious information from that rag.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Sorry... but it was the first article I found with Dutch legalized murder stats...

Please, don't ever quote again from the Daily Heil.

If you want to believe that a country lead by two mummified revolutionaries is the most democratic in the world, be my guest. Just please don't quote serious information from that rag.

Is the Netherlands led by " two mummified revolutionaries?"

 

[Ajidica]

Technically something cannot be legalized murder as murder is, by definition, the unlawful killing of a person.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Technically, Holland don't make no.sense, no-how...

 

[Hygro]

Cubans defect from Cuba because they can't find a doctor who will kill them, (imo only)

Voter Turnout, Netherlands (2012) = 74.56%

Number of Dutch people murdered by Euthanasia = 1 in 30!

If Cuba had legal assisted suicide you'd be extolling how virtuous it is that suffering people can end their lives with dignity.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

If Cuba had legal assisted suicide you'd be extolling how virtuous it is that suffering people can end their lives with dignity.

I am all about dignity...

But if Holland were real democracy, people would want to live there. I mean, normal people.

 

[Hygro]

I am all about dignity...

But if Holland were real democracy, people would want to live there. I mean, normal people.

Oh our communist life is so happy and so joyous that no amount of excruciating bone cancer could make me want to end my life five days sooner than I when I was going to die.

Is that what you're imagining "normal" people to think when they live in "real democracies"? Because that's the logic of it.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Now I get criticism for NOT endorsing murder?

Really... read Wesley Smith's Forced Exit.

 

[Hygro]

So if Cubans decided by their political system they were down with physician assisted suicide you would be against that as well? And would accuse the people Cuba of facilitating murder, right?

"I am all about dignity..."

 

[ReindeerThistle]

So if Cubans decided by their political system they were down with physician assisted suicide you would be against that as well? And would accuse the people Cuba of facilitating murder, right?

No. My support for the Cuban system is uncritical. Plus, Cuba provides health care for their population... including palliative care.

"I am all about dignity..."

I held the hand of my best friend, comrade and roommate as he breathed his last breath, shortly after a succession of 30 of his comrades said their goodbyes and pledged that they would carry on the fight. He was 56 years old and.died from melanoma.

That is dying with dignity. Not some homicidal Dutch (or Oregonian... it's legal in Oregon...) doctor with a frickin' needle ending your life for you.


Read Forced Exit... Here is a review by the Patients Rights Council.

 

[Hygro]

No. My support for the Cuban system is uncritical. Plus, Cuba provides health care for their population... including palliative care.

You literally just told us that what you are calling murder is fully dependent on whether or not it happens in a country that refers to itself as communist or not.

i.e. That the value of an action is only defined by the identity of the political system of the location of where it happened.

 

[dexters]

In bold is pure propaganda...

a. I am talking about the real workd, where, really, 85 individuals own more than the lowest-income 3-1/2 billion.
..

Cuba is a poor example. And the 'they have free healthcare' argument is getting kind of old. Whether society provides free healthcare, or free primary schooling, etc. is a matter of priorities on how wealth generated in the economy is allocated.

As for your assertion that the profit motive is propaganda, the corollary behaviours in Tragedy of the commons is the most easily observable microeconomic phenomena in daily life. Critiquing the profit motive is probably the worst place where you want to argue against the capitalist system.

 

[Agent327]

Cubans defect from Cuba because they can't find a doctor who will kill them, (imo only)

Voter Turnout, Netherlands (2012) = 74.56%

Number of Dutch people murdered by Euthanasia = 1 in 30!

You're quoting the Daily Mail? Seriously?

Let me help you with some simple facts:

The law allows medical review board to suspend prosecution of doctors who performed euthanasia when each of the following conditions is fulfilled:

. the patient's suffering is unbearable with no prospect of improvement
. the patient's request for euthanasia must be voluntary and persist over time (the request cannot be granted when under the influence of others, psychological illness or drugs)
. the patient must be fully aware of his/her condition, prospects and options
. there must be consultation with at least one other independent doctor who needs to confirm the conditions mentioned above
. the death must be carried out in a medically appropriate fashion by the doctor or patient, and the doctor must be present

In 2003, in the Netherlands, 1626 cases were officially reported of euthanasia in the sense of a physician assisting the death (1.2% of all deaths).

Now I could be wrong, but 1.2% does appear to be slight different from 1 in 30.

You seem to think that voter turnout somehow is representative of how democratic a country is, failing to acknowledge that people can choose not to vote, making it rather irrelevant as a criterion.

Technically, Holland don't make no.sense, no-how...

No. Technically it is you who is making no sense by your tendentious postings.

I am all about dignity...

But if Holland were real democracy, people would want to live there. I mean, normal people.

Which is why the Netherlands have immigration restrictions to prevent people from swamping their borders. Sort of like the opposite of Cuba - which is what the actual subject was.

No. My support for the Cuban system is uncritical.

I think that is rather obvious to everyone.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

You literally just told us that what you are calling murder is fully dependent on whether or not it happens in a country that refers to itself as communist or not.

i.e. That the value of an action is only defined by the identity of the political system of the location of where it happened.

Chill, DJ, I said no... because Cuba would never do that... Only Holland and Oregon do it... I live in the Real World...

Cuba is a poor example. And the 'they have free healthcare' argument is getting kind of old. Whether society provides free healthcare, or free primary schooling, etc. is a matter of priorities on how wealth generated in the economy is allocated.

As for your assertion that the profit motive is propaganda, the corollary behaviours in Tragedy of the commons is the most easily observable microeconomic phenomena in daily life. Critiquing the profit motive is probably the worst place where you want to argue against the capitalist system.

How exactly is Cuba a poor example?

I have worked outside of the "profit motive" for 22 years. Profit is what the non-producers take from the workers. That's econ 101. In reality, that entity is called "surplus value"... that value which labor ADDS to a commodity.

Surplus value exists no matter what system... it's under socialism surplus value is socially owned... workers do not toil for the sole benefit of a select few... but for society's benefit.

Which is why the Netherlands have immigration restrictions to prevent people from swamping their borders....

So... Holland murders sick people AND rejects immigrants... charming place.

Besides... Cuba is under a US blockade... the US will and has penalized (stolen assets) of private firms who attempted to do business with Cuba. And it costs lives.

Havana, October 18 (RHC) Cuba has denounced the cancellation of contracts and credit letters opened this year with Bayer Health Care Pharmaceuticals as a result of the US blockade of the island, which bans the supply of medicines and medical products and services to the Island.

Cuba had a contract with that German pharmaceutical giant for the supply of radiology equipment and drugs for patients suffering from multiple sclerosis, as well as interferon, which are no longer supplied by the company to Cuba because after it moved its headquarters to New Jersey, in the United States.

According to Prensa Latina news agency, the move to US territory turned Bayer into the scope of the US blockade and is thus now prohibited to do business with Cuba, even if it causes further hardship and suffering to sick persons on the Island.

Cuban officials have denounced that the United States Government put muscles and chases companies from other countries that do business with Cuba and threatens to close their businesses in the US if they continue their relationship with the Island.

So... who are the savages?

 

[Agent327]

Profit is what the non-producers take from the workers. That's econ 101. In reality, that entity is called "surplus value"... that value which labor ADDS to a commodity.

Only in a doctrinal Marxist view, not in general, and not in the 21st century.

So... Holland murders sick people AND rejects immigrants... charming place.

You really should try reading before posting your inaccurate comments. Since you seem to have a problem with that I'll repost my earlier comment and save you the apparent trouble of scrolling:

The law allows medical review board to suspend prosecution of doctors who performed euthanasia when each of the following conditions is fulfilled:

. the patient's suffering is unbearable with no prospect of improvement
. the patient's request for euthanasia must be voluntary and persist over time (the request cannot be granted when under the influence of others, psychological illness or drugs)
. the patient must be fully aware of his/her condition, prospects and options
. there must be consultation with at least one other independent doctor who needs to confirm the conditions mentioned above
. the death must be carried out in a medically appropriate fashion by the doctor or patient, and the doctor must be present

In 2003, in the Netherlands, 1626 cases were officially reported of euthanasia in the sense of a physician assisting the death (1.2% of all deaths).

Followed by:

Which is why the Netherlands have immigration restrictions to prevent people from swamping their borders. Sort of like the opposite of Cuba - which is what the actual subject was.

and proving

Technically it is you who is making no sense by your tendentious postings.

Now, tell me, where is there any mention of "murdering sick people" and rejecting immigrants?

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Only in a doctrinal Marxist view, not in general, and not in the 21st century.

Says who? So, labour adds no value? That's a load of crap.

You really should try reading before posting your inaccurate comments. Since you seem to have a problem with that I'll repost my earlier comment and save you the apparent trouble of scrolling

Note that your stats were from 2003... like, I can count, that's 11 years ago...

Now, tell me, where is there any mention of "murdering sick people" and rejecting immigrants?

You said rejecting immigrants...

Murdering Sick People:

Death statistics from the Netherlands (July 2012)

(Statline — Dutch Central Bureau of Statistics)
Three percent of deaths in the Netherlands are the result of euthanasia or assisted suicide. Of those, 7% were done without the explicit request of the patient.

"...without the explicit request of the patient!" That is murder!

Let the record show I am vehemently defending LIFE... anyone supporting the Dutch system can only be referred to as a "Death Advocate."