The Panopticon Wonder Discussion Thread

[tu_79]

I really couldn't care less how they are named, as long as they work properly, are useful and interesting. So, choose whatever you are comfortable with and move on.
It could be as generic as Order's Utopia, Freedom's Utopia and Autocracy's Utopia.

 

[Noob Fanboy]

Cultural Victory is not a Utopia, if you want something generic, don't put Utopia in the name .

I guess we can do a simple poll about the wonders, and that solves all

 

[Stalker0]

It’s a game, though, not a philosophical platform.

G

Completely agree, which is why we should make the wonder generic. It removes any concerns about philosophizing out of it, and keeps the new game play mechanic intact. Simple.....easy.

For those pushing for a wonder per ideology....that's simply too much work. The ideologies are different and distinct enough, so we don't need new mechanics to enforce that further. We don't have to spoon feed the player here, keep it generic, and let their imaginations decide what the wonder truly means.

 

[Tekamthi]

some great thoughts here.. scanned a little lightly through the last page or so, but fwiw, the discussion re: 3 CV projects is the way to go imo. I don't like the trade-marked ideas so much -- marvel and disney are not so influential because of any intrinsic "marvel" or "disney" quality -- there's a more abstract idea that has led to their success that should be captured here. Also, I think these fall short of the influence implied by a CV. Also don't like the "building" suggestions so much.. I struggle to imagine a single building triggering the completion of the global cultural dominance.. the concepts represented here should be a little more abstract, in the style of the panopticon. (I was unfamiliar with this concept before this discussion, and in this way it highlights one of the aspects of VP that I love about civ-generally... its a lens through which to learn about history etc.).

I'm also in favor of keeping vanilla aspects, or re-introducing old civ-franchise stuff where possible. In this regard, I'd go with "Utopia" as one of the options. I agree on some level that this term has gained a ubiquitous meaning as a vague "perfect" society, but if we look to its original theorists' and their descriptions, "Utopia" definitely had an "autocratic" flavour to it, and is not so recognizable in the terms we speak of it colloquially here. Many consider Thomas More's "Utopia" of the 1500s to be a satire of the aims of his society's autocratic ideals. In this sense, there is as much "evil" represented here as in the panopticon I think (though, if you believed in order ideology, or autocracy, I don't think you'd see these things as evil necessarily.. this discussion of "evil" is relative to most of us existing in freedom-aligned society)

Finally, I'd propose "commonwealth" as the project for freedom. Again, this has taken on a very british flavor in our usage, at least where I live, but the essence behind the idea implies a hegemony of free & independent states that govern together in some broad sense. Anyway, to sum up my thoughts:

Order: Panopticon
Autocracy: Utopia
Freedom: Commonwealth

 

[pineappledan]

That was very well-reasoned and thoughtful. Thanks, @Tekamthi

I think it's hard to get away from Disney, mostly because there are so few examples of a singular capitalist who was also an ardent futurist. EPCOT was ready-made for utopian thinking.

 

[ashendashin]

@Gazebo , should we have another vote on the ideology wonders along with whether or not there should be CV wonders at all? Or will you take what's already in this thread and present your own thoughts for your decision(s)?
I like Wall Street, Social Credit, and Germania if we go for the wonders.

 

[pineappledan]

Order wonder poll

Autocracy wonder poll

Freedom wonder poll

I'll add link in the OP

 

[a1nosweat]

One final time. if there is a wonder for each ideology then there should be some subtle difference, other than the name, between them. I've suggested this could be % of another factor (perhaps one which is relatively scarce for that ideology perhaps) turned into hammers. otherwise one wonder will suffice.

I don't agree that it should be the panopticon, but it's just a name...I don't care that much. preventing accidental CV's is key here.

 

[Infixo]

Why is there a Wonder in the first place? Because people complained that CV is too quick. So now they will grind through the tech tree to get to it. Or through tenets, doesn't matter.

This is not a solution to an actual problem which is unbalanced inflow of tourism from passive events. The original CV is based on activity - digging, getting GWs, etc. An arbitrary extra condition tied to a tech and production in the city - this goes against the idea of CV which is to actively generate tourism and culture.

I voted "doesn't need any Wonder". Imo, CV needs balancing first to shift it into late eras. I.e. decrease passive inflow, increase active inflow. Then let's see if people would like more conditions.

 

[Mad Madigan]

@Infixo I agree that CV needs Tourism balancing as well to push its victory conditions back to be more in line with Diplomatic and Science, but the main benefit of the Wonder is that A) it gives a definite global countdown for when player X will achieve a CV (something which was lacking for the CV as compared to the other victory types) and B) prevents players from being "surprised" by a CV when they were not even trying to win that way, removing its passive nature. As G said, many have complained (including myself) of how CVs can sometimes "sneak up" on you when you're going for a Domination, Diplomatic, or Science victory, especially on the mid to lower difficulties. By having a wonder requirement, it makes players have to actively choose to achieve it, and it gives the player a clear warning of when an AI opponent is about to achieve a CV so they can do something about it.

Now, its true that part of the reason for "surprise" CVs in previously versions has been due to bugs and imbalances in instant Tourism triggers (Great Musician Tours, GP births, winning wars, trade route completion, etc.), but even if that was all ironed out it would still make sense to have a final "trigger" to complete the CV.

 

[ElliotS]

I personally find the concept of a global monoculture absolutely abhorrent and terrifying. Nothing utopian about it.

Three comments: 1- That's a good reason to stop it. 2- Subcultures are a thing. I don't know if it would be as bad as you think. 3- Especially for children born afterwards.

No one would seriously suggest a eugenics project as a world wonder, so why is this okay?

I agree 100%. That's why I sided with you.

Adding Social credit, social media, mass surveillance is too political for my taste

I disagree. I think social credit is clearly the best choice for order. I think that it's possible to present it as an overwhelming cultural force, which it seems to be.

Like you're forcing people to role-play as nazis in strangely insidious ways.

...Aren't you suggesting building the freaking city Germania for autocracy? I'm sure I can find an autocracy wonder with less swastikas.

It’s a game, though, not a philosophical platform.

I agree with Dan. That just doesn't seem like either of us believe it. If you wanted it to be totally non-philosophical you could have called the wonder 'Utopia Project' for no controversy or something like "Monument to Cultural Eminence".

Civ 5 is a game that resembles history and reality imperfectly in every way it tries;

This too. I mean the biggest problem with any of these games is that almost every big empire in history dies not because of outside forces but internal issues like corruption and dissent.

This can never be modeled properly in a game, because it would be the least fun thing ever.

Order wonder poll

Autocracy wonder poll

Freedom wonder poll

I'll add link in the OP

But...But... I didn't even get to make suggestions! I was even on last night and just haven't had time until I was able to take a short break right now in the middle of my work day.

I think Freedom should definitely be border dissolution project. That can be flavored two ways: 1- Everyone gets along and sings kumbaya and lives more-or-less peacefully or 2- Corporations are able to completely take over. No borders no trade restrictions or tariffs etc. They're able to get the cheapest labor and maximize profits completely.

This way you can satisfy both crowds at once without being overly generic or unrealistic. I think it would be a damn shame if good people had no outs, the poor saps.

 

[tu_79]

Why is there a Wonder in the first place? Because people complained that CV is too quick. So now they will grind through the tech tree to get to it. Or through tenets, doesn't matter.

This is not a solution to an actual problem which is unbalanced inflow of tourism from passive events. The original CV is based on activity - digging, getting GWs, etc. An arbitrary extra condition tied to a tech and production in the city - this goes against the idea of CV which is to actively generate tourism and culture.

I voted "doesn't need any Wonder". Imo, CV needs balancing first to shift it into late eras. I.e. decrease passive inflow, increase active inflow. Then let's see if people would like more conditions.

Not possible with current differences among difficulties regarding tech speed.

 

[Infixo]

@Mad Madigan Both a) and b) are easily visible in Culture Overview window. You can see influence and other important info of other civs, not only yours, so you know exactly when they hit required thresholds.

 

[pineappledan]

I disagree. I think social credit is clearly the best choice for order. I think that it's possible to present it as an overwhelming cultural force, which it seems to be.

Aight, well that's why I said "for my taste". You can think it's fine, I don't.

...Aren't you suggesting building the freaking city Germania for autocracy? I'm sure I can find an autocracy wonder with less swastikas.

Yes I am. I'm suggesting that when people roleplay as Nazis they should be aware that they are acting like a Nazi. The panopticon is currently the ONLY choice for CV, and many people don't know what it is unless they are well-versed in 20th century philosophy. Veiling human rights abuses in intellectualism means the game is setting people up to fail, and preventing them from making informed decisions.

Absolutely, make a monument to fascism, Keep the bloodline pure, solve the "Jewish question". Just make damn sure that people KNOW they are being hideous bastards, don't trick them into it.

 

[ashendashin]

Yes I am. I'm suggesting that when people roleplay as nazis they should be aware that they are role-playing as nazis. The panopticon is currently the ONLY choice for CV, and many people don't know what it is unless they are well-versed in 20th century philosophy. Veiling human rights abuses in pseudo-intellectual language means the game is setting people up to fail, and preventing them from making informed decisions.

Absolutely, make a monument to fascism, Keep the bloodline pure, solve the "Jewish question". Just make damn sure that people KNOW they are being hideous bastards, don't trick them into i

Not much of a trick IMO. Panopticon rolls off the tongue pretty well and usually if I see something I've never heard of in Civ I'd end up checking the civpedia eventually.

 

[civplayer33]

I think Freedom should definitely be border dissolution project. That can be flavored two ways: 1- Everyone gets along and sings kumbaya and lives more-or-less peacefully or 2- Corporations are able to completely take over. No borders no trade restrictions or tariffs etc. They're able to get the cheapest labor and maximize profits completely.

This way you can satisfy both crowds at once without being overly generic or unrealistic. I think it would be a damn shame if good people had no outs, the poor saps.

You might wanna ask the 100+ million people who voted for Trump or the New Right parties in Europe...I'm pretty sure they wouldn't see "border dissolution" as "singing kumbaya" or something that "good people" do.
Now I know that I said I don't care much about the names but since this has come up I definitely don't want neo-Marxist BS being sold as something that defines "Freedom" (aka Western) culture...the people who are pushing border dissolution are by and large left wing radicals and have nothing but disdain for the ideas of liberty and individualism the West is founded upon. Dissolution of borders is not just some trade agreement but a complete destruction of all nation states on the planet along with their unique cultures, which would greatly diminish the influence of corporations since instead of lobbying and bribing governments who are interested in exploiting other countries for strategic reasons and therefore tolerate the influence of corporations they would now most likely be "socialized" or dissolved by the necessarily totalitarian world government, so please let's not incorporate Political Correctness in the game by pretending that "border dissolution" is the typical western utopia; this is, if anything, something fit for the "Order" ideology.

 

[grmagne]

You might wanna ask the 100+ million people who voted for Trump or the New Right parties in Europe...I'm pretty sure they wouldn't see "border dissolution" as "singing kumbaya" or something that "good people" do.

Both Freedom and Order could go the open borders route since, in theory, both libertarians and communists believe in open borders. The fact that both Russia and USA both have many xenophobic & fiercely patriotic citizens shows that the ideals of philosophers don't often translate into reality.

In fact, I think most of the problems with failed ideologies come from the fact that philosophers come up with "utopias" in their mind without understanding how they will play out in the real world. Let’s eliminate borders and all the people of the world will be one happy family. Let’s eliminate religion and free all the people from an oppressive patriarchy. Let’s eliminate capitalism and all of the problems of the world will disappear. Sure, it’s all that simple. And yet the people that believe these crazy things think they’re soooo intellectually superior to those dumb rural folks that love their country, religion and private property.

 

[Gazebo]

Why is there a Wonder in the first place? Because people complained that CV is too quick. So now they will grind through the tech tree to get to it. Or through tenets, doesn't matter.

This is not a solution to an actual problem which is unbalanced inflow of tourism from passive events. The original CV is based on activity - digging, getting GWs, etc. An arbitrary extra condition tied to a tech and production in the city - this goes against the idea of CV which is to actively generate tourism and culture.

I voted "doesn't need any Wonder". Imo, CV needs balancing first to shift it into late eras. I.e. decrease passive inflow, increase active inflow. Then let's see if people would like more conditions.

We have been balancing that. Literally part and parcel of this update. But the wonder is a useful endcap to an otherwise amorphous victory condition.

G

 

[civplayer33]

(can't believe I have to do this again)

People pushing border dissolution are neoliberals bankers, no "left wing radicals".

Yeah and those black hooded, hammer and sickle flag-waving idiots shouting things like "no borders, no nations" are clearly just rich kids of bankers trying to have some fun...socialist world revolution with the abolition of borders and nations is no concept from the left at all...wait...I may have let the border between my serious and sarcastic sides erode a bit there.

But border dissolution and social credit are really very political topics.

Yes they are, hence the bipartisan split in society between Left (no borders) and Right (more borders).
This can actually be proven psychologically as well: leftists are psychometrically more open than conservatives which means they like to erode borders between lots of things, including ideas, but also nations; that makes them good artists and entrepreneurs while conservatives like borders (including around ideas and nations) which makes them good at running stuff efficiently since they don't get sidetracked.

Social credit isn't linked to Order (associated with Socialism / Communism), it's more linked to autocracy (aka. Big Brother).

If you really think Socialism / Communism isn't autocratic you need to read up on Soviet leaders and Social credit as in assessing a person's conformity to an ideology can be witnessed in the western world right now with the constant monitoring of people's adherence to left wing Political Correctness and the subsequent punitive or incentive consequence (job loss or promotion at more and more companies, for example).

About trump, oh god, do you know about tactical voting?. People voting for trump were scared of the women related to a war criminal (aka. George Bush).

I kinda hesitate to accept that you really believe 60 million people voted tactically and for such a stupid reason. I really hope this was a joke (I actually did lol briefly )

Of course, after elections, trump is just doing something different (attacking Syria because yes).

As if to prove my point, the anti-trump comment to showcase where you stand, which explains why you are rushing to defend the left and smear the "evil capitalists".
I'm not pro-Trump btw., I'm not even American, but I do take the current political situation seriously.

More like 62 million

I was talking about Trump voters and Europeans who voted for FN, AfD, LN and all the other New Right parties in the different European countries. They are more than 100 million put together. I agree with your post, though.

I, too, don't wanna talk about politics here, again, but I do want to make sure my favorite game mod doesn't become infested with the kind of ideology that tells me I'm a violent rapist because I was born as a white male.

 

[Moi Magnus]

Let's not talk about Actual Politics

I, too, don't wanna talk about politics here, again

Lets agree on that. If you do wish to continue this debate, please use a more appropriate platform (and just posting a link there if you really want to), or use personnal messages.

While discussing one year ago about renaming Freedom/Order/Authocracy to something more precise, we arrived to the conclusion that keeping the vague names from Firaxis was probably the better (since no other consensus was reached). I have the feeling that we will reach the same problem here if we try to "choose an utopy" for each ideology.

Also, the way I've understood civ's cultural victory was not "global assimilation of every culture into one culture". For me, if real life was a game of Civ 5, the USA would have won the cultural victory around the end of the cold war, and we are curently in the "just one more turn".
(And I don't consider the culture of my country "assimilated" by the USA, just influenced. "We buy your jeans and listen your musics", as the loosing leader say when you influence them)