The right wing culture of learned helplessness

aelf

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"Wait, what?” you might ask. Isn't learned helplessness the domain of the left, of welfare queens, of people so dependent on government handouts that they can't seem to help themselves even when there are opportunities to do so (or, heck, why not create those opportunities, pulling yourself by the bootstraps and all, right? Why wait for businesses to hire when everyone can start their own business?)?

I've been reading debates on things like income inequality and mass shootings and there's one pattern I've noticed, which is that right-wingers never propose a solution in these debates except to offer the standard refrain of less government or public action (how that will help is rarely if ever explained, a lot of it seemingly based on purely ideological reasons - but we'll get to that).

Let me outline the pattern so you can see what I mean.

In the debate on income inequality, right-wingers like to say that income inequality doesn't matter if the poorer sections of society are better off in absolute terms. They maintain that this is the case because the economic pie is not finite but growing. So if your 10% share of the pie is bigger than your 20% share of the previous pie, then all is well.

But that's in theory. In reality, income needs to be looked at in conjunction with costs. Your smaller share of the pie is often smaller in absolute terms as well because it didn't grow by as much as you might've thought due to increased costs. Rising costs of crucial goods and services like health care and education is a big contributor to both income inequality and reduced economic well-being of those who are not among the economic elite. This is undeniable even to the right.

So is the solution then to help people cope with these cost pressures through measures like subsidies? No, they say, because increasing government spending has (they claim) never helped due to 'corruption' and inefficiency. And, of course, unions are baaad. So what's their solution? Deregulation, cutting taxes, cutting spending. How will that help? Well, increased competition because there will be more providers and, uh... So, basically, their position is that government can't do anything (beyond the very basics, because we still need military muscle to beat our enemies into submission), that the only solution is to consciously do even less and hope for the best. This is what I mean by learned helplessness.

In discussing mass shootings in the USA, right-wingers claim that gun control is not the solution. Their first line of defense is to argue that people can use other implements to kill other people, such as bombs and knives. Regarding, the recent shooting incident in the USA that killed 27 people, they bring up a similar incident in China with a knife that injured more than 20 people. The difference in outcomes between the two doesn't seem to be apparent to them (or is deliberately ignored). And all the statistics that I've seen point to the fact that the death rate in shooting incidents in the USA is higher than the death rates in bomb or knifing incidents in other developed countries.

This is an uncomfortable fact that is occasionally acknowledged by Second Amendment fanatics. But then they blame it on the proliferation of guns in the USA and on the culture of violence. On the proliferation of guns, they argue that it's impossible to do anything about it through regulation or any concerted government action, so the only thing you can do is to allow everyone to carry guns for self-defense and hope for the best. On solutions to the culture of violence, they say even fewer things of substance, advocating maybe that people attend church more or something along those lines. This is what I mean by learned helplessness.

So, basically, the right rarely has any solution except to let nature take its course (since the invisible hand of the market is, after all, treated like a natural law). I don't know about you, but this seems rather cynical. It denies that we as human beings can take collective action to solve problems that individuals can't seem or are unwilling to solve.

Do right-wingers know that this is what their positions on many things essentially amount to? Does this represent naive idealism or cynicism on their part?

Your thoughts, please.
 
The usual thoughtful post from you, aelf. Nicely put.

The only thing I'd dispute is the decline in absolute living standards of the people at the "lowest" end of the spectrum. It's not been my experience. Nor what I've heard. Can you substantiate it?
 
The "culture of violence" is the thing I find most weird. As if it's preferable to admit that America is an incorrigibly violent country with violence so deeply ingrained in its culture that it cannot be fixed. It sounds rather un-American to me. Your country's screwed up that bad, huh? Wow. You're right that a fun criticism of the right is that they admit that they are powerless to change society, and too lazy to do anything about the problems in the world. "Get a job!" they shout at the activists and the community organisers. "It'll never work!" they shout at the entrepreneurs and the idealists. "Know your place!" they shout at the future leaders and the avant garde. Such is the nature of conservatism.



P.S. I'm glad that this is in the Tavern....
 
I've seen laissez-faire idealists argue that the inequality is mostly there due to too much government intervention and the fact that meddling in the free market (eg through ensuring minimum wages) will remove the competition that would otherwise drive growth up (eg through competing companies wanting to pay workers more.)

I'd argue that the high rate of gun crime in the US is more due to the social abyssals that exist there that make Danish poverty look like a realm of kings. Less education and income as well as relative poverty leads to higher violence rates, and combined with minimal gun control, gun murders may easily run amok.

Lastly, I think American laissez-faire supporters are generally more about securing independence and individuality with an ethical foundation for their arguments - the ethical, moralistic right way to organize a society - without realizing that archieving this intended "goodness of morals" will inevitably lead to a lot of pain for most people. It's like they have that old ethereal moralist ideology that promotes "good behavior" which has bad consequences, merely because it is good in an abstract moralist way. I see easily how the American right can embrace an abstract ideology so easily as they have so deep root within Christian morals that are also otherworldly prophetized as the right way of acting.

In short, they fail to distinguish between abstract morals and concrete applications - and compromises. That's why both Rand and Nietzsche fail in politics. (I like Nietzsche, don't get me wrong.)

Contrarily, the Danish left usually promotes equality as a moral dogma, even when it is impractical at times. It is really important here to be fair and to ensure everyone has a fair chance. If you don't ensure that the poor have money, you are definitely a bad person. That's our cultural discourse, and it at times does not work - especially with recent politics where we tried to engage the unemployed with activity centers in a strange mix of solidaric work ethics and overcompensating government investments in all the wrong places and businesses.

Basically, applying moral discourses to politics is heinous and usually ineffecient, and the American right is really bad at staying pragmatical about things, much the same with much of the Danish left.

(That said, I seriously despise the way the Danish right view poor people and paedagogics culturally so I'm torn all the time.)
 
Oh and while we're criticising right wingers, I'd like to throw my usual insight into the mix. If the murderer was black or a Muslim or a South Korean student, the media would be examining his race, religion or ethnic background for narratives that would explain why he shot all those kids. But since he's a privileged straight white male, it's merely the act of a random crazy psychopath. We don't examine whether his privilege as a straight white male was a contributing factor in his craziness.

For the record, I agree that this is a random crazy psychopath, just like all the others. Just like 9/11 was the work of a whole bunch of random crazy psychopaths, just like Hitler and Stalin and all the others were random crazy psychopaths. But just imagine if this particular crazy psychopath happened to have a different skin colour...
 
lord_joakim hit one point that can't be emphasized enough, as it is often not seen at all: And that is that for too many people on the right, and that includes most libertarians, even though they try to distance themselves from the conservatives they really are, is that it is better to fail having tried to do things the "right way" than it is to succeed having done things the "wrong way". We see this time and time again. Opposition to sex education and the HPV vaccine for teenagers. Opposition to business regulations. Many many different issues on widely divergent topics. There is a "right way" to do things, and a "wrong way", and whether these ways succeed or fail doesn't make any difference to which way is tried.
 
I agree republicans need to do something about their guns, but government is not the solution. There is nothing the government does well (not even wage war- look at the boondoggle in Iraq). The fact of the matter though, is mass shootings are a recent problem. The country was much better when there was less government.
 
Do right-wingers know that this is what their positions on many things essentially amount to? Does this represent naive idealism or cynicism on their part?

Your thoughts, please.
It may be both depending on the actual person. I will note that cynicism is not bad as it is usually a part of pragmatism, and in our time we have too much of idealism. Even if we compare too more or less heavily regulated country - say, UK or Singapore I will vote for Singapore at any time as they are pragmatics and their regulations are aimed to solving actual problems, not some imaginary ones.

It denies that we as human beings can take collective action to solve problems that individuals can't seem or are unwilling to solve.
The problem is not that the human being can not take collective action. They can. The problem is that to make this they have to transfer some of their individual freedom to the state, and the more collective effort you want to do the more freedoms and liberties they have to give up. And everyone has his own limit to how much he want to give up.

If taken far enough even without obvious dictatorship we can end up with something like a late Soviet Union - a generally benevolent but heavy equalizing state with no much space for individuality. Look at the Scandinavian countries for modern example. Yes, they have a content living there but it is a deathtrap for any free thinker.

And also the people of such countries are becoming weak. Look at the Norway. Breivik killed about 70 people and the only ones who tried to stop him was some Chechen teens. And the stray psychopaths are not the only problem. Nations consisted of people who are able to take massive "collective actions" are prone to become victims of mass genocides by his own government. Pol Pot would not be able to do something like this in USA where a lot of people have guns and more importantly have culture to fight for their own survival.
 
So the trick is to find that precise balance between individualism and collectivism?

Sounds like an old problem.
 
If taken far enough even without obvious dictatorship we can end up with something like a late Soviet Union - a generally benevolent but heavy equalizing state with no much space for individuality. Look at the Scandinavian countries for modern example. Yes, they have a content living there but it is a deathtrap for any free thinker.

Deathtrap for any free thinker? This is nonsense. Have you ever been here? Read Scandinavian media? Scandinavian scientific articles? Political criticism of the state? Really, I mean... It's not true, at all. It's bizarre to read.

And also the people of such countries are becoming weak. Look at the Norway. Breivik killed about 70 people and the only ones who tried to stop him was some Chechen teens. And the stray psychopaths are not the only problem. Nations consisted of people who are able to take massive "collective actions" are prone to become victims of mass genocides by his own government. Pol Pot would not be able to do something like this in USA where a lot of people have guns and more importantly have culture to fight for their own survival.

If you can dig up historical precedent like Breivik in Norway, you may do so. What failed with the handling of him wasn't Norwegian soft acceptance of criminal behavior or little to no gun culture, it was because the police was so unused to terrorist acts that they basically spent all the resources taking care of Oslo while he went nuts on Utøya. They had no idea how to do it properly because that kind of thing doesn't happen in Norway - primarily because of their excellent social policies. Blaming one incident on weakness of political institution doesn't get the point straight. You have to understand what actually happened during Utøya, which was basically semi-unprofessional overinvestment in Oslo, which was done basically because "OH MY GOD THINGS ACTUALLY HAPPEN HERE AAAH"

There was plenty of political and institutional resources to avert the disaster, it was just poorly executed.
 
Deathtrap for any free thinker? This is nonsense. Have you ever been here? Read Scandinavian media? Scandinavian scientific articles? Political criticism of the state? Really, I mean... It's not true, at all. It's bizarre to read.
Have you been yourself in free countries or in free (sub)societies to compare? Your location says you are living in pretty regulated country yourself which is known for inventing doublethink.

I had a funny experience in one Middle East country when I had a conversation with British and American guys and they were much more relaxed in their speech than in, say, British in UK. In UK people control themselves like in the Orwell's book so not to step on yet another taboo (though they relax a bit if talking with Russian guy who seem not to care about such trivial topics).

Political criticism is a small thing. Can one criticize taboos? Is a certain culture allows radically different thinkers to emerge? Modern Scandinavian countries are very equalizing societies.

If you can dig up historical precedent like Breivik in Norway, you may do so. What failed with the handling of him wasn't Norwegian soft acceptance of criminal behavior or little to no gun culture, it was because the police was so unused to terrorist acts that they basically spent all the resources taking care of Oslo while he went nuts on Utøya. They had no idea how to do it properly because that kind of thing doesn't happen in Norway - primarily because of their excellent social policies.
Here is the problem. You are talking about how police was unprepared but it is not what I am talking about. There were more than 600 people there. How come that 600 people could not take out one guy? How it is possible that he was just killing people and they did not try to fight for their own life but were only begging and crying?

I do not blame police. Indeed they were unprepared. But it is the fact one guy with gun was able to do whatever he want among 600 young man (which in other cultures would quite dangerous opponents due to their recklessness and will to fight) just killing anyone.

Blaming one incident on weakness of political institution doesn't get the point straight. You have to understand what actually happened during Utøya, which was basically semi-unprofessional overinvestment in Oslo, which was done basically because "OH MY GOD THINGS ACTUALLY HAPPEN HERE AAAH"
I was not blaming any political institution. I was talking about the people.
 
I do not blame police. Indeed they were unprepared. But it is the fact one guy with gun was able to do whatever he want among 600 young man (which in other cultures would quite dangerous opponents due to their recklessness and will to fight) just killing anyone.

If you were there, you would be the first one on the ground, crying for your parents.
 
Defending Brevik by saying his victims weren't manly enough.

I love this forum.

:popcorn:
 
If you were there, you would be the first one on the ground, crying for your parents.

Neither the chest thumping bravado nor cynical bring-down are with merit. You never know what somebody will do when faced with the world upside down. Big strong lads cower in terror and tiny women stand to die.
 
Have you been yourself in free countries or in free (sub)societies to compare? Your location says you are living in pretty regulated country yourself which is known for inventing doublethink.

I had a funny experience in one Middle East country when I had a conversation with British and American guys and they were much more relaxed in their speech than in, say, British in UK. In UK people control themselves like in the Orwell's book so not to step on yet another taboo (though they relax a bit if talking with Russian guy who seem not to care about such trivial topics).

Political criticism is a small thing. Can one criticize taboos? Is a certain culture allows radically different thinkers to emerge? Modern Scandinavian countries are very equalizing societies.


Here is the problem. You are talking about how police was unprepared but it is not what I am talking about. There were more than 600 people there. How come that 600 people could not take out one guy? How it is possible that he was just killing people and they did not try to fight for their own life but were only begging and crying?

I do not blame police. Indeed they were unprepared. But it is the fact one guy with gun was able to do whatever he want among 600 young man (which in other cultures would quite dangerous opponents due to their recklessness and will to fight) just killing anyone.


I was not blaming any political institution. I was talking about the people.

Don't be silly when the bullets start flying most everyone runs for their life, what do you expect them to do? In the split second before he opens fire to plan out an attack so they can overpower him?
 
Have you been yourself in free countries or in free (sub)societies to compare? Your location says you are living in pretty regulated country yourself which is known for inventing doublethink.

I had a funny experience in one Middle East country when I had a conversation with British and American guys and they were much more relaxed in their speech than in, say, British in UK. In UK people control themselves like in the Orwell's book so not to step on yet another taboo (though they relax a bit if talking with Russian guy who seem not to care about such trivial topics).

Political criticism is a small thing. Can one criticize taboos? Is a certain culture allows radically different thinkers to emerge? Modern Scandinavian countries are very equalizing societies.

Sigh. Recently there was a pretty hefty discussion on whether the laws on incest should be deregulated, allowing father/daughter and brother/sister to have sex if both were consenting adults. Also a political party discussed openly whether they would join in on the communist revolution if it happened soon. Other people are openly racist and it's pretty difficult to shut them up. And what taboos exactly do you suppose we have?

I'm not from the UK. It's not expected of you to know that, but it's not particularly old news. I'm even insanely loud about it on the forums. My avatar thingie right now is an internal joke on the NESing forum. Yeah, I'm from Denmark myself. I live in this supposed post-Stalinist unfree hellhole you're constructing, and I'm telling you, if this is post-Stalinism, you're seriously missing out.

We're schooled from young age to question everything we're taught in school and to think critically. Danish art movements are plentiful and piss plenty of people off. But please tell me about the taboos that cannot possibly be broken. I'll assure you I've most probably discussed it not too long ago without social backlash.

Here is the problem. You are talking about how police was unprepared but it is not what I am talking about. There were more than 600 people there. How come that 600 people could not take out one guy? How it is possible that he was just killing people and they did not try to fight for their own life but were only begging and crying?

I do not blame police. Indeed they were unprepared. But it is the fact one guy with gun was able to do whatever he want among 600 young man (which in other cultures would quite dangerous opponents due to their recklessness and will to fight) just killing anyone.

I was not blaming any political institution. I was talking about the people.

Lol so your issue isn't the political climate, but you are saying teens can and should blindly run towards a guy with an assault rifle? Do you get human psychology? One only does that after being drilled so intensely that the whole collectivist dystopia you're building isn't true. It's just surprisingly disregarding of how humans function.

The issue here was not a lack of blind ferocity that strives against the human survival instinct, it's that police wasn't able enough to solve the issue effectively due to a severe lack of routine.

EDIT:

I would not be there at the first place as I am not social-democrat.

Look, somebody's completely unable to grasp how to counterargue hypotheticals.
 
Neither the chest thumping bravado nor cynical bring-down are with merit. You never know what somebody will do when faced with the world upside down. Big strong lads cower in terror and tiny women stand to die.

Ah Farm Boy, always the cool water in situations like this. He's also absolutely right. Moral courage is hard to detect. You don't even know if you have it yourself until the world caves in.

What Snorrius was talking about was physical courage, or sizing up your opponent and saying "I can take him." That's an important form of courage as well, but it won't get you into a burning building.
 
Chiming in to say I also think that Farm Boy is right, regardless of what my last post might show.

My post was more presented as a counterpoint to Snorrius' expectations of what-would-in-many-countries-be-called-children.
 
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