The roots and essence of the European Union project
- Thread starter innonimatu
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Peck of Arabia
Sociable Recluse
When it comes to national governments, I guess it's just a case of better the devil you know.
Also, the EU hardly a bastion of free trade itself, unless protectionism at a supranational scale somehow doesn't count.
Tahuti
Writing Deity
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Interestingly, mercantilist powers like Pre-1789 France did everything to destroy internal trade barriers while strengthening trade barriers around France itself. Pretty much like the EU.
In fact, I do believe that Euroscepticism in Britain and Scandinavia is largely motivated by a desire to have more free trade with the world as opposed to Europe. Both are opposed to EU's agricultural subsidies.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
I'm not really sure how I'm supposed to interpret this.Good to know commies aren't ideologues at all.
If you're using "ideologue" to mean "espouser of dogmatic Weltanschauung", as is conventional, then it's hard to see how that could be derived from my post. (Which isn't to say that it couldn't be consistent with such a description, but so are most political statements, so that does not help us very much.) My statement may have been absolutising, but so is, for example, "genocide is bad", and few of us would take the latter as being in itself of indicative of ideologuery, because we recognise that content as well as form to be relevent (i.e. that some things are absolutely true). So that usage wouldn't make much sense.
However, if you're simply using it to mean "unapologetic espouser of unorthodox views", then: yes, fair enough, I'm happy to own up to that. But, why wouldn't it? It's nothing to be ashamed of, and not much of a criticism. So that usage wouldn't make much sense either.
You may need to help me out a bit with this.
So you say it is motivated by ignorance?
This is true (and just as bad as national protectionism). But I was mainly taking a jab at innonimatu's main beef with the European Union.
hobbsyoyo
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lol I think you over thought it.
He meant (I'm pretty sure):
(sarcasticly) You and all communists are ideologues.
History_Buff
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This rings pretty true to me. From my perspective, those who hate their governments ceding power to the EU don't seem to be too keen on their existing governments either.
Peck of Arabia
Sociable Recluse
So you say it is motivated by ignorance?
for the most part, probably- I saw Jose Barroso on a Google hangout once but I couldn't point out Herman Von Rumpuy or my local MEP in a line up if my life depended on it- and that's just what they look like, let alone what they do
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Oh, I know. I just get a kick out of response to flippantry with apparently-earnest rigour. Half self-mockery, what with my reputation, and half a roundabout way of returning the insult.
Yeah, I totally agree with your assessment of the situation, in case that wasn't clear.
for the most part, probably- I saw Jose Barroso on a Google hangout once but I couldn't point out Herman Von Rumpuy or my local MEP in a line up if my life depended on it- and that's just what they look like, let alone what they do
But the reason we don't know guys like Rompuy is because they're faceless bureaucrats that nobody wanted, just like we don't know our MEPs because they're too powerless to care about them. The question is just, who's keeping them powerless? Who but our national governments, which would lose both power (the governments, not the people they represent!) as well as someone to blame every time things go wrong. The irony is that their favourite argument for keeping European representatives powerless is to point out that no one knows their representative.
Genocide isn't necessarily "bad" if you're a consequentialist.
Borachio
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Well. I don't know. He has a point, I suppose. If you place a lot of emphasis on Israel having played the holocaust card quite heavily.
But I'm not even slightly happy with this line of thinking. Assuming that is indeed what he's referring to. It may not be, ofc.
But I'm not even slightly happy with this line of thinking. Assuming that is indeed what he's referring to. It may not be, ofc.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
I think you're rather missing the point.
Tahuti
Writing Deity
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Actually, simple consequentialism leads to such if unchecked (which was btw already noted by Robert Nozick with his 'utility monster'), which is why the theory has become significantly more detailed since its inception.
But that's what I meant. Everyone knows that simple consequentialism is flawed. And this thread isn't even really about the consequences of simple consequentialism. So Mouthwash is really just opening another front because he knows he can't challenge the heart of TF's argument.
strijder20
Wallowing in irony
for the most part, probably- I saw Jose Barroso on a Google hangout once but I couldn't point out Herman Von Rumpuy or my local MEP in a line up if my life depended on it- and that's just what they look like, let alone what they do
Herman Van Rompuy
Please, leave the minimal national pride I have intact and don't spell the name of the President of the European council like he is a German. Germans already do enough in European politics
This thread started with comparing the current leadership of the EU with Hitler. Which is clearly an insult to your cultural heritage
