The shoe is on the other foot

[dutchfire]

The Mossad has been spying on John Kerry's telephone conversations, in particular during the peace talks last year. Israel's government used this information during the (failed) talks. The eavesdropping occurred when Kerry used unencrypted telephone lines to talk with Arabian/Palestinian leaders.

Source (German, I coulnd't find it on the BBC website)
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/israel-hoerte-us-aussenminister-kerry-ab-a-984176.html

Do you think this will have implications for the US-Israel relationship?

 

[Kyriakos]

^"Everyone other country would do that too".

Pls stop being anti-semitic; it's pretty emetic.

 

[Tahuti]

This hardly the only source of Israeli-US tension. Israel has been hedging for a potential US-Israeli break since the late 2000s by cultivating ties with Russia, China and India, for instance.

 

[bhsup]

Do you think this will have implications for the US-Israel relationship?

Very doubtful beyond some blustering for the camera by American politicians. It's not like it is the first time they've spied on us.

 

[Paul in Saudi]

This is simply not true. The Israelis promised they would stop spying on the US after you-know-who was caught. You would have to be an idiot to spy on... oh wait a minute.

 

[Agent327]

Spy agencies doing spying...What is the world coming to... Next we'll hear about spy agencies lying...Oh, wait...

 

[Gary Childress]

This hardly the only source of Israeli-US tension. Israel has been hedging for a potential US-Israeli break since the late 2000s by cultivating ties with Russia, China and India, for instance.

So are we to think that since the US has stopped giving Israel a "blank check" to do whatever it wants to the Palestinians, Israel is now looking for a strong ally who will stand behind them against the opinions of the more sensible nations of the world. If that is the case, what a lovely nation Israel is....

HOWEVER. Maybe Israel just wants to make more friends, just ones who aren't Palestinian?

 

[Tahuti]

So are we to think that since the US has stopped giving Israel a "blank check" to do whatever it wants to the Palestinians, Israel is now looking for a strong ally who will stand behind them against the opinions of the more sensible nations of the world. If that is the case, what a lovely nation Israel is....

The US will never become an Anti-Israel country at any rate. The Israeli-American break will be out of indifference and not hostility. Demographically, there are more Jews than Muslims, and Muslims in the US tend to be rather educated so not really in need of an external scapegoat whenever they randomly stumble. Simply put, being Anti-Israel renders you unelectable.

The issue all depends on American global power. For most anti-Israel countries (who are anti-Israel to show off how 'anti-colonial' they are and that kind of crap, and virtuall never because of a direct strategic issues with Israel), America is simply too powerful to make a really big deal about its Israel policy, unless America decided to pick a fight against you, as is the case with Iran. America has been in retreat at this front, and especially in the Middle East. So Israel needs to diversify and expand its groups of friends.

 

[Farm Boy]

Of course they spy on us. The Germans do too, for all their righteous indignation. I'd eat my shoes in surprise if they didn't, and I'm wearing boots at the moment.

 

[Quackers]

The Mossad has been spying on John Kerry's telephone conversations, in particular during the peace talks last year. Israel's government used this information during the (failed) talks. The eavesdropping occurred when Kerry used unencrypted telephone lines to talk with Arabian/Palestinian leaders.

^"Everyone other country would do that too".

Seems quite sensible to me. Do you think it would be wise that Israel has 100% faith in a body that isn't itself? Israel is surrounded by enemies; every precaution is taken.

Do you think this will have implications for the US-Israel relationship?

None. The US will require far more to begin siding with Hamas and the Palestinians. We're nowhere near that stage yet.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Of course they spy on us. The Germans do too, for all their righteous indignation. I'd eat my shoes in surprise if they didn't, and I'm wearing boots at the moment.

Have a nice meal.

I am really tired of the "everyone-does-it"-defense. But it is the typical strategy to justify anti-social behavior. As it implies some sort of law of nature which makes the world that way. Hence one basically has to act that way.
Which makes it only more tiresome.
Well here are news for you: there is no law like that. And if the will is there a nation like the USA has splendid means to enforce a different law - one saying one does not spy on allies. However, because the USA also has splendid means to do some spying, they rather do some spying and then excuse themselves with this flimsy BS justification. Which everybody readily nods their head at though. Perhaps because those kinds of justifications penetrate every inch of our social structures.

 

[Farm Boy]

I think I'll have frozen peas. I like frozen peas.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I hope you use them as foot wear, too.

 

[bhsup]

Have a nice meal.

I am really tired of the "everyone-does-it"-defense.

I don't know that he was justifying it so much as just stating a reality. Btw, I like frozen peas too Mmm... with butter melted on them.

 

[jackelgull]

Seems quite sensible to me. Do you think it would be wise that Israel has 100% faith in a body that isn't itself? Israel is surrounded by enemies; every precaution is taken.


None. The US will require far more to begin siding with Hamas and the Palestinians. We're nowhere near that stage yet.

To your first point- if Israel shouldn't have that much faith in America, then should America have that much faith in Israel? Israel espionage goes beyond the norms of what is considered acceptable from allied countries. The US certainly doesn't go to the same lengths as Israel does.

For the second point, who says this means we should negotiate with Hamas. Can't we just walk away from the situation as a whole? Or is it a must for America to support one side, no matter what that side does to America?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I don't know that he was justifying it so much as just stating a reality. Btw, I like frozen peas too Mmm... with butter melted on them.

Just a guess, but if butter is melting on them they aren't really frozen.

 

[Farm Boy]

I hope you use them as foot wear, too.

Never tried it, I set forth boots as the object in question. Now, I'll grant there may be differences in capacity, scale, and willingness. Those differences matter. But only so much. I also think the spying has gone too far. And I share your tiredness at the whole thing. It's breaking into realpolitik, which is approximately the least interesting way possible to look at things. Pretty much brain-dead.

But again, the differences are only so much. We live in this world. I'm not even annoyed at Israel for this. Of course that's going on. Who I am annoyed with is our security apparatus for allowing it to happen, now that is actually vexing. We live in "trust but verify" world. That's not an endorsement of Reagan either, just that not everything that came out of his mouth was stupid. Some of it was wise, and that's an example of it. If the German nation wanted the moral high-ground to be pissed, then they would have signed the agreement regarding security information sharing and non-spying. They didn't, which basically says, "We don't trust you enough, no." So of course there is spying. The wide-eyed denials actually reek of nationalism.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I don't know that he was justifying it so much as just stating a reality.

You are unbelievable.
I just complained about exactly such a statement in my post.
And there it comes.
Ghrhdjjfhdhfj
"Law of nature"

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I'm not even annoyed at Israel for this. Of course that's going on. Who I am annoyed with is our security apparatus for allowing it to happen, now that is actually vexing.

I am fine with being annoyed with your security apparatus. But I am also fine with being annoyed with Israel. If the USA wasn't doing at least just as much spying that is.
Perhaps it is the European history. But European nations to me appear to be much less Machiavellian in their relations than you think every nation every of course is. No it doesn't have to be like that. But the assumption it has to certainly makes it so.

We live in "trust but verify" world.

It is a weird idea of trust if you do not trust something until you verified it. It is a weird idea of trust if having it disappointed is not even a disappointment.
What does this word even mean, then?

Moreover, I am not sure it even is a matter of trust. Germany did not necessarily trust USA to no spy like that. USA is a superpower pulling strings - it can not be trusted just because of its power and its will to use it. But they wanted the USA to not do so. Perhaps one can say they trusted that the kind of relationship America and Germany have prohibits such spying. So that then Germany can rightfully complain if it is done anyway.

To which the USA replies by hiding behind its Machiavellian world view. A world view with happens to benefit those with power!

If the German nation wanted the moral high-ground to be pissed, then they would have signed the agreement regarding security information sharing and non-spying.

What are you talking about? This thing signed with Australia, Canada and so forth? Was that ever actually on the table for Germany?

 

[Tahuti]

The US certainly doesn't go to the same lengths as Israel does.

HELLO? NSA Wiretapping scandal?