The Sons of God

Berzerker

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1 And it cometh to pass that mankind have begun to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters have been born to them, 2 and sons of God see the daughters of men that they [are] fair, and they take to themselves women of all whom they have chosen. 3 And Jehovah saith, `My Spirit doth not strive in man -- to the age; in their erring they [are] flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years. 4 The fallen ones were in the earth in those days, and even afterwards when sons of God come in unto daughters of men, and they have borne to them -- they [are] the heroes, who, from of old, [are] the men of name.

Genesis 6

1) How can Jesus be the only son of God?
2) Man's days "have been" 120 years?
3) Is that 120 years up to the Flood?

This passage also refers to the "fallen ones", the Nephilim - those who came down from Heaven. But the sons of God came down from Heaven too...

These beings were here before and after the Flood...Where'd they go during the Flood? Back up "there"?
 
I think you're barking up a tree which isn't a tree (maybe more of a lamp post) with this one.

Much of the OT reads like science fiction to me. Who knows what it means? Who knows if it means anything?
 
The Bible I've been reading is the protestant one used here in Finland 1992 edition. It doesn't say "sons of God" but rather "sons of gods". That's a big difference innit. The older edition from 1933 says "sons of God". My lucky guess is that "sons of gods" is the original meaning reflecting the polytheist nature of Judaism at the time. Reading the Bible you can see many cases where the Israelites worship other gods as well as Yahweh. This was then later changed to "sons of God" because there is only one god and all that. Might have also been a scribe error in the olden days who knows. You'd have to study the oldest available manuscripts to get the original message than rely on some poor translation made over several millenia later after being copied by hand probably hundreds of times.

"Man's days" in "my Bible" is translated as "Man's lifetime" clearly meaning a man can live upto 120 years. "My Bible" doesn't speak of the "fallen ones" but it talks about giants.

Now which is the real word of God? God has a very peculiar way of bringing forth his message to mankind...

Edit:
After reading Genesis 6 and some chapters before and after it I can only conclude that Genesis 6:1-4 don't make any sense at all. Genesis 6:1-4 just don't fit there, it don't feel right. It's like the story is missing most of the content but it's still been added there for some odd reason. Then I read the Wikipedia page about this and not suprisingly there seems to be a billion different interpretations of these verses. Then you have all the different translations of these verses with very different meanings. Which is the real deal? Which is the word of God? These are some of the reasons why I laugh at people who claim the Bible to be the word of God.
 
If this passage is referring specifically to the Nephilim I believe the general consensus is that they were children of men and angels, I suppose confusion could occur as the -El suffix in most angel's names (Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel etc.) roughly translates to 'of god'.
 
For most of the Hebrew Bible, references to God are actually say Adonai, literally "lord." Most contemporary Christian bibles will translate this as LORD, but simply God is also becoming more common. Adonai was the common title of address for Hebrews to God.

Genesis 6:2 does not use Adonai but I think Genesis 6:3 does. Instead, 6:2 uses another term for divinity. It might be elohim. It is like the difference between the word divinity and the word God, the latter refers to a specific deity whereas the former is a broader category.

What you are looking at is a poor translation, or at leas a point where the translator's choices have become confusing.

The Douay Rheims Bible translates G 6:2-3 as follows:

E said:
6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Note the difference in words used.


Edit: At least some references translated in English Bibles as LORD use the Tertagrammaton. Other words may also be translated as LORD, including YHVH Elohi which translates as God of Gods or Lord of Lords. The conspicuous use of two different terms for divinity in consecutive passages indicates that both the 6:2 and 6:3 references were both to divinities, but only the 6:3 one was to Jehovah. The early Hebrews recognized the existence of multiple divine powers, but only one true God which explains why it makes sense to have references to other divinities in the Hebrew Bible.
 
From what I remember of reading the "Ask a Theologian" threads, "son of God" merely means something closer "one who is blessed by God" or "a righteous man" rather than the way many Christians think of it.
 
The ultimate troll?
(I hope it is not against forum rules to call God a troll)

If God is the ultimate troll, then he would have to exist? Would not the correct application be to ancient Hebrews?

@ The sons of God:

It would depend on if you believe in creation or evolution. It would depend on if you trusted the Greeks or the Atlanteologist.

@ Bezerker Have you read the new book by Andrew Collins Gobekli Tepe Genesis of the Gods?

It would seem that there was a race of humans that had certain advantages over other humans and there was some cataclysmic event that wiped out a clear understanding of who they were. The normal humans would be the alleged descendants of Adam and Eve.

Now most modern scientist reject the notion that an event changed the world and left humans to re-settle the earth from the area of modern day Turkey. There is evidence (physical) and written that show a totally different history than we have accepted. We see history as a bunch of ancient people who wrote about gods and beings that came from the stars. If 21st century historians would get together and show a better history of civilization than (I don't want to show facts that give credence to the Bible, and if we just leave people in the dark with the Greek gods, then we can just poke fun at any history before the fall of Rome) they may be surprised at how much more information they can use to discredit the Bible. Although the 19th century did a pretty good job, but if Islam is going to be allowed to "take over" the world, we may only have their version of history in 1000 years.

Just remembered the sunday school song: Father Abraham had many sons.
 
An alternate translation:

6:1 When humankind 1 began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born 2 to them, 3 6:2 the sons of God 4 saw that the daughters of humankind were beautiful. Thus they took wives for themselves from any they chose. 6:3 So the Lord said, “My spirit will not remain in 5 humankind indefinitely, 6 since 7 they 8 are mortal. 9 They 10 will remain for 120 more years.” 11

6:4 The Nephilim 12 were on the earth in those days (and also after this) 13 when the sons of God were having sexual relations with 14 the daughters of humankind, who gave birth to their children. 15 They were the mighty heroes 16 of old, the famous men. 17

6:5 But the Lord saw 18 that the wickedness of humankind had become great on the earth. Every inclination 19 of the thoughts 20 of their minds 21 was only evil 22 all the time. 23 6:6 The Lord regretted 24 that he had made humankind on the earth, and he was highly offended. 25 6:7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe humankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth – everything from humankind to animals, 26 including creatures that move on the ground and birds of the air, for I regret that I have made them.”

The notes

1 tn The Hebrew text has the article prefixed to the noun. Here the article indicates the generic use of the word אָדָם (’adam): “humankind.”
2 tn This disjunctive clause (conjunction + subject + verb) is circumstantial to the initial temporal clause. It could be rendered, “with daughters being born to them.” For another example of such a disjunctive clause following the construction וַיְהִיכִּי (vayÿhiki, “and it came to pass when”), see 2 Sam 7:1.
3 tn The pronominal suffix is third masculine plural, indicating that the antecedent “humankind” is collective.
4 sn The Hebrew phrase translated “sons of God” (בְנֵי־הָאֱלֹהִים, bÿne-ha’elohim) occurs only here (Gen 6:2, 4) and in Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. There are three major interpretations of the phrase here. (1) In the Book of Job the phrase clearly refers to angelic beings. In Gen 6 the “sons of God” are distinct from “humankind,” suggesting they were not human. This is consistent with the use of the phrase in Job. Since the passage speaks of these beings cohabiting with women, they must have taken physical form or possessed the bodies of men. An early Jewish tradition preserved in 1 En. 6-7 elaborates on this angelic revolt and even names the ringleaders. (2) Not all scholars accept the angelic interpretation of the “sons of God,” however. Some argue that the “sons of God” were members of Seth’s line, traced back to God through Adam in Gen 5, while the “daughters of humankind” were descendants of Cain. But, as noted above, the text distinguishes the “sons of God” from humankind (which would include the Sethites as well as the Cainites) and suggests that the “daughters of humankind” are human women in general, not just Cainites. (3) Others identify the “sons of God” as powerful tyrants, perhaps demon-possessed, who viewed themselves as divine and, following the example of Lamech (see Gen 4:19), practiced polygamy. But usage of the phrase “sons of God” in Job militates against this view. For literature on the subject see G. J. Wenham, Genesis (WBC), 1:135.
5 tn The verb form יָדוֹן (yadon) only occurs here. Some derive it from the verbal root דִּין (din, “to judge”) and translate “strive” or “contend with” (so NIV), but in this case one expects the form to be יָדִין (yadin). The Old Greek has “remain with,” a rendering which may find support from an Arabic cognate (see C. Westermann, Genesis, 1:375). If one interprets the verb in this way, then it is possible to understand רוּחַ (ruakh) as a reference to the divine life-giving spirit or breath, rather than the Lord’s personal Spirit. E. A. Speiser argues that the term is cognate with an Akkadian word meaning “protect” or “shield.” In this case, the Lord’s Spirit will not always protect humankind, for the race will suddenly be destroyed (E. A. Speiser, “YDWN, Gen. 6:3,” JBL 75 [1956]: 126-29).
6 tn Or “forever.”
7 tn The form בְּשַׁגַּם (bÿshagam) appears to be a compound of the preposition בְּ (beth, “in”), the relative שֶׁ (she, “who” or “which”), and the particle גַּם (gam, “also, even”). It apparently means “because even” (see BDB 980 s.v. שֶׁ).
8 tn Heb “he”; the plural pronoun has been used in the translation since “man” earlier in the verse has been understood as a collective (“humankind”).
9 tn Heb “flesh.”
10 tn See the note on “they” earlier in this verse.
11 tn Heb “his days will be 120 years.” Some interpret this to mean that the age expectancy of people from this point on would be 120, but neither the subsequent narrative nor reality favors this. It is more likely that this refers to the time remaining between this announcement of judgment and the coming of the flood.
12 tn The Hebrew word נְפִילִים (nÿfilim) is simply transliterated here, because the meaning of the term is uncertain. According to the text, the Nephilim became mighty warriors and gained great fame in the antediluvian world. The text may imply they were the offspring of the sexual union of the “sons of God” and the “daughters of humankind” (v. 2), but it stops short of saying this in a direct manner. The Nephilim are mentioned in the OT only here and in Num 13:33, where it is stated that they were giants (thus KJV, TEV, NLT “giants” here). The narrator observes that the Anakites of Canaan were descendants of the Nephilim. Certainly these later Anakite Nephilim could not be descendants of the antediluvian Nephilim (see also the following note on the word “this”).
13 tn This observation is parenthetical, explaining that there were Nephilim even after the flood. If all humankind, with the exception of Noah and his family, died in the flood, it is difficult to understand how the postdiluvian Nephilim could be related to the antediluvian Nephilim or how the Anakites of Canaan could be their descendants (see Num 13:33). It is likely that the term Nephilim refers generally to “giants” (see HALOT 709 s.v. נְפִילִים) without implying any ethnic connection between the antediluvian and postdiluvian varieties.
14 tn Heb “were entering to,” referring euphemistically to sexual intercourse here. The Hebrew imperfect verbal form draws attention to the ongoing nature of such sexual unions during the time before the flood.
15 tn Heb “and they gave birth to them.” The masculine plural suffix “them” refers to the “sons of God,” to whom the “daughters of humankind” bore children. After the Qal form of the verb יָלָד (yalad, “to give birth”) the preposition לְ (lÿ, “to”) introduces the father of the child(ren). See Gen 16:1, 15; 17:19, 21; 21:2-3, 9; 22:23; 24:24, 47; 25:2, etc.
16 tn The parenthetical/explanatory clause uses the word הַגִּבֹּרִים (haggibborim) to describe these Nephilim. The word means “warriors; mighty men; heroes.” The appositional statement further explains that they were “men of renown.” The text refers to superhuman beings who held the world in their power and who lived on in ancient lore outside the Bible. See E. A. Speiser, Genesis (AB), 45-46; C. Westermann, Genesis, 1:379-80; and Anne D. Kilmer, “The Mesopotamian Counterparts of the Biblical Nephilim,” Perspectives on Language and Text, 39-43.
17 tn Heb “men of name” (i.e., famous men).
18 sn The Hebrew verb translated “saw” (רָאָה, ra’ah), used here of God’s evaluation of humankind’s evil deeds, contrasts with God’s evaluation of creative work in Gen 1, when he observed that everything was good.
19 tn The noun יֵצֶר (yetser) is related to the verb יָצָר (yatsar, “to form, to fashion [with a design]”). Here it refers to human plans or intentions (see Gen 8:21; 1 Chr 28:9; 29:18). People had taken their God-given capacities and used them to devise evil. The word יֵצֶר (yetser) became a significant theological term in Rabbinic literature for what might be called the sin nature – the evil inclination (see also R. E. Murphy, “Yeser in the Qumran Literature,” Bib 39 [1958]: 334-44).
20 tn The related verb הָשָׁב (hashav) means “to think, to devise, to reckon.” The noun (here) refers to thoughts or considerations.
21 tn Heb “his heart” (referring to collective “humankind”). The Hebrew term לֵב (lev, “heart”) frequently refers to the seat of one’s thoughts (see BDB 524 s.v. לֵב). In contemporary English this is typically referred to as the “mind.”
22 sn Every inclination of the thoughts of their minds was only evil. There is hardly a stronger statement of the wickedness of the human race than this. Here is the result of falling into the “knowledge of good and evil”: Evil becomes dominant, and the good is ruined by the evil.
23 tn Heb “all the day.”
sn The author of Genesis goes out of his way to emphasize the depth of human evil at this time. Note the expressions “every inclination,” “only evil,” and “all the time.”
24 tn Or “was grieved”; “was sorry.” In the Niphal stem the verb נָחָם (nakham) can carry one of four semantic meanings, depending on the context: (1) “to experience emotional pain or weakness,” “to feel regret,” often concerning a past action (see Exod 13:17; Judg 21:6, 15; 1 Sam 15:11, 35; Job 42:6; Jer 31:19). In several of these texts כִּי (ki, “because”) introduces the cause of the emotional sorrow. (2) Another meaning is “to be comforted” or “to comfort oneself” (sometimes by taking vengeance). See Gen 24:67; 38:12; 2 Sam 13:39; Ps 77:3; Isa 1:24; Jer 31:15; Ezek 14:22; 31:16; 32:31. (This second category represents a polarization of category one.) (3) The meaning “to relent from” or “to repudiate” a course of action which is already underway is also possible (see Judg 2:18; 2 Sam 24:16 = 1 Chr 21:15; Pss 90:13; 106:45; Jer 8:6; 20:16; 42:10). (4) Finally, “to retract” (a statement) or “to relent or change one’s mind concerning,” “to deviate from” (a stated course of action) is possible (see Exod 32:12, 14; 1 Sam 15:29; Ps 110:4; Isa 57:6; Jer 4:28; 15:6; 18:8, 10; 26:3, 13, 19; Ezek 24:14; Joel 2:13-14; Am 7:3, 6; Jonah 3:9-10; 4:2; Zech 8:14). See R. B. Chisholm, “Does God ‘Change His Mind’?” BSac 152 (1995): 388. The first category applies here because the context speaks of God’s grief and emotional pain (see the following statement in v. 6) as a result of a past action (his making humankind). For a thorough study of the word נָחָם, see H. Van Dyke Parunak, “A Semantic Survey of NHM,” Bib 56 (1975): 512-32.
25 tn Heb “and he was grieved to his heart.” The verb עָצָב (’atsav) can carry one of three semantic senses, depending on the context: (1) “to be injured” (Ps 56:5; Eccl 10:9; 1 Chr 4:10); (2) “to experience emotional pain”; “to be depressed emotionally”; “to be worried” (2 Sam 19:2; Isa 54:6; Neh 8:10-11); (3) “to be embarrassed”; “to be offended” (to the point of anger at another or oneself); “to be insulted” (Gen 34:7; 45:5; 1 Sam 20:3, 34; 1 Kgs 1:6; Isa 63:10; Ps 78:40). This third category develops from the second by metonymy. In certain contexts emotional pain leads to embarrassment and/or anger. In this last use the subject sometimes directs his anger against the source of grief (see especially Gen 34:7). The third category fits best in Gen 6:6 because humankind’s sin does not merely wound God emotionally. On the contrary, it prompts him to strike out in judgment against the source of his distress (see v. 7). The verb וַיִּתְעַצֵּב (vayyit’atsev), a Hitpael from עָצָב, alludes to the judgment oracles in Gen 3:16-19. Because Adam and Eve sinned, their life would be filled with pain; but sin in the human race also brought pain to God. The wording of v. 6 is ironic when compared to Gen 5:29. Lamech anticipated relief (נָחָם, nakham) from their work (מַעֲשֶׂה, ma’aseh) and their painful toil (עִצְּבֹן, ’itsÿvon), but now we read that God was sorry (נָחָם, nakham) that he had made (עָשָׂה, ’asah) humankind for it brought him great pain (עָצָב, ’atsav).
26 tn The text simply has “from man to beast, to creatures, and to birds of the air.” The use of the prepositions עַד…מִן (min...’ad) stresses the extent of the judgment in creation.

Even scholars find this passage difficult.

J
 
One of the problems with this passage is that there is very little context to go by and often with rarely used words the context is the best way to find out. also the Hebrew word for 'God' is Elohim, which is a singular plural word, but is also used in the plural sense. This passage has the very best Scholars doing years of research about this passage and it is rather inconclusive. Considering that some texts in the OT are very old and thus the meaning of some of the words are near impossible to find out.

But with this passage there are generally two interpretations of who the 'sons of God' are. One is that they are they godly line of Adam and the other is that they are sinned angels that took the form of men to seduce women. The second interpretation is perhaps why we have 2 Peter 2:4 and why they are in a separate part of hell.
 
Begotten son vs created sons?
 
I think you're barking up a tree which isn't a tree (maybe more of a lamp post) with this one.

Much of the OT reads like science fiction to me. Who knows what it means? Who knows if it means anything?
Fantasy - science fiction requires actual science, or at least plausible extrapolation of known principles. The Bible contains neither.

If God is the ultimate troll, then he would have to exist? Would not the correct application be to ancient Hebrews?

@ The sons of God:

It would depend on if you believe in creation or evolution. It would depend on if you trusted the Greeks or the Atlanteologist.
Whut? :huh:

What do the Greeks or the mythical Atlanteans have to do with this?

@ Bezerker Have you read the new book by Andrew Collins Gobekli Tepe Genesis of the Gods?

It would seem that there was a race of humans that had certain advantages over other humans and there was some cataclysmic event that wiped out a clear understanding of who they were. The normal humans would be the alleged descendants of Adam and Eve.

Now most modern scientist reject the notion that an event changed the world and left humans to re-settle the earth from the area of modern day Turkey. There is evidence (physical) and written that show a totally different history than we have accepted. We see history as a bunch of ancient people who wrote about gods and beings that came from the stars. If 21st century historians would get together and show a better history of civilization than (I don't want to show facts that give credence to the Bible, and if we just leave people in the dark with the Greek gods, then we can just poke fun at any history before the fall of Rome) they may be surprised at how much more information they can use to discredit the Bible. Although the 19th century did a pretty good job, but if Islam is going to be allowed to "take over" the world, we may only have their version of history in 1000 years.
Oh. Come. On.

You have not provided even a smidgen of evidence of a world-wide flood in any of the threads you've posted in on the issue. The closest evidence re extraterrestrial life is the meteor that may or may not contain "Martian microbes" - and the scientific community has not yet been able to confirm or refute that possibility.

There are primary historical sources that existed long before 476 CE. I have English translations of quite a number of them on my bookshelf at this very moment - writings of Julius Caesar, Tacitus, Suetonius, and others.

There are even more ancient histories that were written, too. The Egyptian hieroglyphs aren't just pretty pictures, you know. They're actual historical records.

wall of text
Would you mind editing your "notes" to have a blank line between the paragraphs, please, so it's more readable? Thanks.
 
What do the Greeks or the mythical Atlanteans have to do with this?

You have not provided even a smidgen of evidence of a world-wide flood in any of the threads you've posted in on the issue. The closest evidence re extraterrestrial life is the meteor that may or may not contain "Martian microbes" - and the scientific community has not yet been able to confirm or refute that possibility.

There are primary historical sources that existed long before 476 CE. I have English translations of quite a number of them on my bookshelf at this very moment - writings of Julius Caesar, Tacitus, Suetonius, and others.

There are even more ancient histories that were written, too. The Egyptian hieroglyphs aren't just pretty pictures, you know. They're actual historical records.

Would you mind editing your "notes" to have a blank line between the paragraphs, please, so it's more readable? Thanks.

Do you have any written histories covering between 10,000 and 5,000 BC?
 
Of course not. You specified the Fall of Rome, which occurred in 476 CE (AD, if you prefer). Julius Caesar's writings are from the 1st century BCE (BC) and both Tacitus and Suetonius wrote in the 1st-2nd centuries CE (AD).
 
From what I remember of reading the "Ask a Theologian" threads, "son of God" merely means something closer "one who is blessed by God" or "a righteous man" rather than the way many Christians think of it.

While this may be true in some contexts, there's ample other evidence to indicate a filial relationship between Jesus and God.

One of the problems with this passage is that there is very little context to go by and often with rarely used words the context is the best way to find out. also the Hebrew word for 'God' is Elohim, which is a singular plural word, but is also used in the plural sense.

Elohim isn't the only Hebrew word for God. Most instances of elohim come up in the context of Jehovah elohim which is translated in Christian bibles as Lord of lords. Elohim is probably better translated as a god or gods rather than the God (Jehovah).

Fantasy - science fiction requires actual science, or at least plausible extrapolation of known principles. The Bible contains neither.

The Man in the High Castle contains precious little known principles as well, but people stock that on their sci-fi shelves.
 
Fantasy - science fiction requires actual science, or at least plausible extrapolation of known principles. The Bible contains neither.

You're joking, right?

Sure, some SF does contain plausible extrapolations. Notably Arthur C. Clarke (though not invariably even with him). And honestly, he's a little boring, imo.

In general, the SF that I've read (and I've read a fair bit) contains absolutely no actual science, or even plausible extrapolation.

That's probably why it's classified as fantasy at my local library.
 
While this may be true in some contexts, there's ample other evidence to indicate a filial relationship between Jesus and God.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that the Bible suggests that Jesus wasn't the Son [i.e. part of the Trinity (at least, according to Christian belief)], or that he didn't have that type of relationship with God, merely that the phrase "son of God" doesn't imply anything unique, as the Bible refers to quite a few "sons of God" and, in all likelyhood, at the time of Jesus it wouldn't have meant anything more that, perhaps, implying Jesus was a prophet. Other statements attributed to him do likely imply more than this.
 
Science fiction to me is "speculative fiction", in terms of the setting being in some way a plausible enough extension of our own reality.

Fantasy is the same except the setting can be made up and there's wizards and people with pointy ears.
 
I've read science fiction like that. The boundary between SF and fantasy is by no means a firm one, imo.

Where do you place Terry Pratchett, for example? In some ways he's most certainly fantasy, in others quite science based.

But often enough he's just writing satire on contemporary society.
 
Elohim isn't the only Hebrew word for God. Most instances of elohim come up in the context of Jehovah elohim which is translated in Christian bibles as Lord of lords. Elohim is probably better translated as a god or gods rather than the God (Jehovah).

Elohim is the word for God. Just because the God of the Bible goes by other names, doesn't mean that the Hebrew word 'Elohim' should be translated as anything but God or gods depending on the usage.
 
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