The State of Education in Your Country

[ParkCungHee]

I don't blame Catholic schools for it...they really can't afford it. Catholic schools became great in large part because they had access to an educated, talented labor force that was willing to work for almost nothing...priests and nuns. With such tiny labor costs, they could offer private education for {very} little money, and became a viable alternative for a lot of poor urban kids. With the priesthood shortage and with many Catholic churches cash-strapped from legal fees, Catholic schools had to switch a more conventional work force. They can't really afford to hire IEP-trained staff and still keep costs low.

Theres also economy of scale to consider. At least prior to the highschool level, you're going to get a very small class size in the average catholic school. The local one here has a class size numbering in the dozens. They would have to hire IEP-trained staff on and off based on whether an IEP student was actually enrolled any given year.

 

[downtown]

There is one question I would like to know people's opinion on:

What do you think is the optimal class size? (You can elaborate, e.g. larger class size for PE and smaller for language class..etc)

In Hong Kong, class size is almost always 40 (+- 5); which is quite large when compared to US. Recently due to the lowest birth rate in the world, we have lesser and lesser students, but the government still refuse to start the "small class education" scheme, and some teachers are jobless while classes remain big. (Some school have to close down due to not enough classes also.) There was quite a lot of debate on funding issue and effectiveness; but I do not see it implemented anytime soon. (If you compare HK score in the PISA test with countries with smaller class size, you really cannot argue for it.)

It depends a LOT on demographics and age. Kids in elementary school need smaller class sizes than high schoolers. If you have kids who are on grade level (academically), and have an experienced teacher, you can have a high school class in the upper 30s without major problems. Younger kids should be capped out at 25.

I think current scholarship has shown class sizes to matter a little less than we thought they did.

 

[aronnax]

I also think it depends on the program that you are running for the children. IB schooling for example, cannot run well with large classes (More than 20-30ish students) because it places a lot of importance of specific graded assessments that contribute to the final grade that require the teacher to guide students. Especially when we write our mini-university thesis (4000 essay of the topic of our choice). Teacher-student communication is important.

 

[luiz]

I just learned from the OECD Factbook some interesting stuff. Look at the Expenditure per student per year in primary, secondary and post-secondary non-tertiary education (in 2000 constant prices), in some selected countries:

USA: $10.267K
Denmark: $9.27K
UK: $8.305K
Canada: $7.773K
France: $7.712K
Australia: $7.459K
Germany: $6.895K
Finland: $6.89K
Korea: $6.089K
http://www.google.com/publicdata/ex...A:GBR:USA:KOR&ifdim=country_group&hl=en&dl=en

Now the results those same countries get for their expenditure (mean maths PISA score for males - for some reason I had to look at males and females separately):

Finland: 554.25
Korea: 552.02
Canada: 534.08
Australia: 526.95
Denmark: 518.21
Germany: 513.24
UK: 503.87
France: 498.86
USA: 478.61
http://www.google.com/publicdata/ex...U:KOR:GBR:USA&ifdim=country_group&hl=en&dl=en

Why are the Americans getting such a bad "bang for the buck"? I think many Americans talk about under-funded schools, but is that what the statistics tell? (granted, you could have some extremely well-funded schools and others lacking funds, but at the end of the day it does not seem to be about lack of money).

And what are the Koreans and Finns doing right?

 

[downtown]

I just learned from the OECD Factbook some interesting stuff. Look at the Expenditure per student per year in primary, secondary and post-secondary non-tertiary education (in 2000 constant prices), in some selected countries:

USA: $10.267K
Denmark: $9.27K
UK: $8.305K
Canada: $7.773K
France: $7.712K
Australia: $7.459K
Germany: $6.895K
Finland: $6.89K
Korea: $6.089K
http://www.google.com/publicdata/ex...A:GBR:USA:KOR&ifdim=country_group&hl=en&dl=en

Now the results those same countries get for their expenditure (mean maths PISA score for males - for some reason I had to look at males and females separately):

Finland: 554.25
Korea: 552.02
Canada: 534.08
Australia: 526.95
Denmark: 518.21
Germany: 513.24
UK: 503.87
France: 498.86
USA: 478.61
http://www.google.com/publicdata/ex...U:KOR:GBR:USA&ifdim=country_group&hl=en&dl=en

Why are the Americans getting such a bad "bang for the buck"? I think many Americans talk about under-funded schools, but is that what the statistics tell? (granted, you could have some extremely well-funded schools and others lacking funds, but at the end of the day it does not seem to be about lack of money).

And what are the Koreans and Finns doing right?

One of the biggest differences is that Americans ask their schools to provide social services that many other industrialized countries offer from the state. American schools often employ multiple social workers. Our districts hire litigation specialists and other professionals that would be unneeded elsewhere. Our spending on non-classroom specific personnel is huge compared to Finland, Korea, etc. We also have a worse crop of professionals to chose from, and we are worse at training them.

America has some demographic disadvantages. You really can't undersell the problems of dealing with the legacy of segregation in US schools. Working in impoverished districts is really expensive too. We'd be getting a lot more bang from our buck if...

1) We were serious about limiting the roadblocks that poverty throws up in childhood education
2) We put a larger emphasis on early childhood education, to limit the impact of the academic achievement gap before school starts
3) We got serious about treating teachers like professionals. That means creating a larger training or residency period, making the profession more selective, and helping to pay for their education.

A piecemeal approach is very expensive. The Finnish approach is expensive up front, but very affordable later.

 

[luiz]

Interesting points. I am also guessing that teachers are more expensive in the States than elsewhere (though all salaries tend to be higher in the States).

And for the record, the American results are mediocre, not atrocious. I selected those countries on purpose to make the point that the US is getting a very bad bang for the buck, but the US is still beating the likes of Italy, Portugal, Greece, Israel, and is essentially tied with Spain. The problem is that those countries spend much less per student than the US. Only Norway and Switzerland spend more per student than the USA, so you really should be doing better on the international rankings.

 

[Tahuti]

But note that these are averages. Schools in the US are funded by property taxes, because of this, quality widely differs from school to school.

 

[downtown]

Interesting points. I am also guessing that teachers are more expensive in the States than elsewhere (though all salaries tend to be higher in the States).

Yeah, labor is more expensive here in general. It's funny, even though we spend more on teacher salaries than many other countries, our teacher labor pool is typically *way* worse. The salary is really noncompetitive when compared to other industries where talented candidates can go to instead, and the prestige is even lower. South Korea pays teachers less, but the prestige of the position is closer to what we might give for say, lawyers.

But note that these are averages. Schools in the US are funded by property taxes, because of this, quality widely differs from school to school.

School spending accounts for less of a difference in school quality than you think. Our best districts are often not the highest spending ones.

 

[Arwon]

Teacher salaries aren't considered to be brilliant here, either, and there's huge issues of skill shortages and poor retention as well. It's not a uniquely American problem.

One thing we do have, though, is a special rate for education and nursing degrees, they're cheaper than all other degrees at university here. I wonder how much that has helped with getting decent teachers and keeping them.

 

[puglover]

Formal assessments do not HAVE to be only paper and pencil. I've done formal essay or project based assessments. It's actually a very good idea to change up your assessment style from time to time.

Sure. I actually love project-based assessments. They seem to be an excellent way to engage gifted or high-achieving students who want to demonstrate their learning in something creative. Of course, the VAST majority of the formal assessment we see in schools is pencil/paper. Nothing particularly wrong with that, they're easier to grade. But yes, I see your point.

Private schools are also not obligated to take anybody with an IEP.

This is an important consideration in the public vs. private schooling debates.

1) We were serious about limiting the roadblocks that poverty throws up in childhood education
2) We put a larger emphasis on early childhood education, to limit the impact of the academic achievement gap before school starts
3) We got serious about treating teachers like professionals. That means creating a larger training or residency period, making the profession more selective, and helping to pay for their education.

Quoted. I love this. Mind if I steal it?

You seem to have a deep knowledge of this subject. Are you an educator?

 

[ParkCungHee]

Interesting points. I am also guessing that teachers are more expensive in the States than elsewhere (though all salaries tend to be higher in the States).

Also, your stats include Post-Secondary, which means the costs explode.

 

[downtown]

You seem to have a deep knowledge of this subject. Are you an educator?

I was. I did most of my undergrad in Education Policy, worked for a charter school in college, and did Teach for America. I've taught elementary school and HS band. This is the first year I haven't been in a classroom.

 

[puglover]

I was. I did most of my undergrad in Education Policy, worked for a charter school in HS, and did Teach for America. I've taught elementary school and HS band. This is the first year I haven't been in a classroom.

Cool.