1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

The United States of Europe

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Civciv5, Feb 15, 2012.

?

Are you for a United Europe or against?

  1. Yes,in the form of one nation but many languages and peoples(including Russia)

    14.3%
  2. Yes,but in the form of a sort of union(European Union)(including Russia)

    14.3%
  3. Yes,in the form of one nation but many languages and peoples(excluding Russia)

    12.5%
  4. Yes,but in the form of a sort of union(European union)(excluding Russia)

    33.9%
  5. No,I'm against it

    25.0%
  1. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    34,490
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    House of Hades
    Okay, maybe we could get on the same page if you said which responsibilities you would transfer to the confederation's central government.
     
  2. Benefactor

    Benefactor Beneficial

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2007
    Messages:
    902
    Location:
    Rov'Rum
    The Parliament isn't that weak since the Lisbon Treaty took effect.
     
  3. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    34,490
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    House of Hades
    Still weaker than the Commission or Council while it should be the other way around.
     
  4. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Messages:
    15,419
    Location:
    SPACE! Maybe?
    I am with gangleri here, as long as Spain lets Catalonia be independent. :)
    If not, I want a united country, so at least it won't be Spain oppressing us And Europe will be very powerful.
     
  5. muhtesem insan

    muhtesem insan Amateur Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2010
    Messages:
    563
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Istanbul
    And how different do you think Turkish and Greek Cultures are?
     
  6. IdiotsOpposite

    IdiotsOpposite Boom, headshot.

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,718
    Location:
    America.
    I don't know what he's going to say, but I for one am interested in what you think they are. As a neophyte to Eastern European relations, I don't know much about it myself and would be interested to hear the opinions of a man of Turkey on that question.
     
  7. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,617
    Location:
    Scotland
    Not really. There is a very broad post-'91 convention, but that's neither particular objective nor, as your own qualifications prove, particularly precise. Definitions can and do range from Catholic-Protestant Europe alone, to including Israel, Armenia and Morocco, which is a margin of error of something like 100%. And that's basically a bit crap.
     
  8. Quackers

    Quackers The Frog

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2008
    Messages:
    10,282
    Location:
    Great Britain
    Ignoring Turkey and fudging the Eastern border isn't "pretty well define[d]". It is spectaculaly undefined :p
     
  9. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Messages:
    15,419
    Location:
    SPACE! Maybe?
    I define Europe as the land on the Eurasian tectonic plate West of the Ural mountains and river and on the northern side of the Caucasus. That is, the piece of land connected by land with Asia by the Caucasus and Ural mountains and river. And, of course, any islands on the same tectonic plate.
     
  10. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    34,490
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    House of Hades
    Whatever is going on on the eastern edge of Europe, it's ridiculous to imply that Britain's not part of the continent.
     
  11. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Messages:
    15,419
    Location:
    SPACE! Maybe?
    Completely. But politically, they'd rather be alone in the middle of the Atlantic (like geographic Iceland). Or so it seems.
     
  12. Agarwaen

    Agarwaen King

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2005
    Messages:
    607
    Location:
    São Paulo, Brasil
    I think European Union has a precise design in that mess of institutions. It is democratic enought to institutionalise some conflicts, but undemocratic enought so the will of the states trumps over the will of people. And the central government is strong enought to impose itself over small and weak governments, but weak enought so not to rule over the big dogs.
     
  13. Veles

    Veles ♈ ♉ ♊ ♋ ♌ ♍ ♎ ♏ ♐ ♑ ♒ ♓

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    815
    Location:
    Русь
    If we're talking about ideal Europe here, then I think its geographical definition should be expanded and Latin should be made universal language as a powerful culture-binding force.

    Russia should definitely be a part of European State. Yes, it would constituate 20% of its population and 2/3 of its territory, so what? It took Slavs millenia of blood and sweat to conquer the forest and the steppe for European civilization (of which they are the biggest part) colonise it and make it suitable for living, so it's well deserved.

    The thing is to change the mechanisms of representation (and abolish autocratic institutions) so that no nation or culture could dominate. The entirety of Europe from Lisbon to Vladivostok should be divided into several hundreds (thousands?) entities of more or less comparable size. This entities would be the basiс element of European structure, kinda like modern municipalities, but significantly more powerful and self-sufficient. All the fiscal, judical, police and other basic functions will be performed on that level, within the minimal framework, set at federal (confederate?) level.

    It will elect councils (soviets? :mischief:), say 110 MPs for each 100000 of population. Those elected will then elect among themselves, say 10 MPs for each 100000 of population for a next level parlament, who would represent a region. With the same manner of election, the next level parliament would be of roughly what now constituates a country. In case of Russia there should be several such parliaments. The final level would be All-Europe council, significantly less powerful, as all actual govering would occur on municipal level.

    Some soverignty should be given up, sure, but hey, if Russia itself does it, why shouldn't others follow? It's for the common good, after all.

    Since everybody seems to be so sensitive about culture, Latin language would ensure that no single culture dominates. Every European nation can relate to Latin in some way. Less so for East Slavs, but here that little fact many come handy, that Proto-Balto-Slavic comes from the same language continuum with Latin, and to this day has many similiar words and constructions.
     
  14. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,617
    Location:
    Scotland
    Isn't it begging the question to argue for a definition of Europe in reference to "European civilisation"?
     
  15. Veles

    Veles ♈ ♉ ♊ ♋ ♌ ♍ ♎ ♏ ♐ ♑ ♒ ♓

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    815
    Location:
    Русь
    Perhaps, if you're willing to. What is your definition?

    I'd say Indo-European, Christian background, within the geographical definition of Europe (which poses another question :mischief:).

    All very subjective, yes.
     
  16. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2005
    Messages:
    50,841
    Location:
    Stamford Bridge
    That would exclude Albania, parts of Spain, France, Germany and Sweden, Hungary, and Finland.
     
  17. Veles

    Veles ♈ ♉ ♊ ♋ ♌ ♍ ♎ ♏ ♐ ♑ ♒ ♓

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    815
    Location:
    Русь
    Well, that was predictable. Again, the nature of question is very subjective.

    Long story short - they're in. 'Nuff said.
     
  18. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,617
    Location:
    Scotland
    Well, no, not really. If your basis for inclusion is simply whether Veles thinks a given region is European, then why should anybody else feel obliged to pay it any heed whatsoever? They can just as easily say "Actually, no, I think that it should be X Y Z".
     
  19. Veles

    Veles ♈ ♉ ♊ ♋ ♌ ♍ ♎ ♏ ♐ ♑ ♒ ♓

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    815
    Location:
    Русь
    No? Darn. At least it was a nice try, though, hopefully :mischief:

    What's your definition, anyway?

    If you want an exact universal formula of Europeanness, than most probaly there's none, and decisions should be taken for every region individually. But anyway, those should definately be among the factors considered: Indo-European, Christian background, within the geographical definition of Europe. Spiced by some common sense.
     
  20. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,617
    Location:
    Scotland
    Honestly? I tend to think of "European" as an historical fiction. It can be a useful term in particular contexts, but only to a certain extent, and it's shifting and even self-contradictory even then. I didn't really see any coherent grounds for establishing any sort of general European identity.

    I still don't know why an Indo-European language is important, though. It seems to me that most Europeans just happen to speak one, rather than it having any particular significant in and of itself. A Castilian is in every significant respect more similar to a Basque than he is to a Dutchman, regardless of the genealogy of their native tongue. It seems like you're mistaking a vague correlation for a causal relationship (in whatever direction).
     

Share This Page