The Welsh Blind-spot

[North King]

Um, the final pacification of Wales by Henry V required the largest army ever assembled on the British islands.

Wales is also the part of Europe most saturated with Medieval Castles. The biggest castles on the British Isles are all in Wales.

Some of the are absolute monsters. They would seem to indicate simultaneously the size of the problem of the English conquerors and the extent of their paranoia with regards to the Welsh population. (Like building an entire town around the castle in Caernarfon and settling it with Flemish imigrants, to give the English king at least one safe base in northern Wales.)

Well, I did know most, if not all, of the above, but the fights are still not so well covered in history books as the Scottish and Irish fights. And, as I mentioned, I have greater personal ties to the latter, so... Yes, Wales required quite a bit of fighting, and I have known about their castles for some time, but the information on its conquest is less readily available than for Scotland and Ireland.

Wales might have been quiet in the last 600 years, but before that it was considerably more fought over, for much longer than any other part of the British Isles. Historically it was only when the English finally managed to get on top of he Welsh that they could turn their attention to the Irish and Scots, and then they were brought into line considerably quicker than the Welsh.

One could argue that it was the greater power of the English at that time which allowed them to subdue the Scots and Irishmen more quickly. They feuded with Scotland and Wales often concurrently; am I right in seeming to recall that Edward attacked Wales in order to remove a thorn from his side? I thought it was something to the effect of that Wales was the weaker threat, and that they would be somewhat easier (at that time) to subdue than Scotland, so he went ahead and conquered Wales in order to be able to better focus on a single front. Of course, I'm not entirely sure.

 

[Winner]

Because everybody needs the "joke-people", simply put someone who can be a target of such jokes and get over it.

That's why it's OK to make jokes about blonde women instead of blacks or Jews.

 

[Figaro]

Additionally, you have the fact that Scotland and Ireland, as noted in the thread, resisted much more heavily being integrated into the UK.

Not true, as per Verbose's post above. The difference is rather that there haven't been any films made about it!

With regards the survival of culture and language, Welsh has been far more successful than either of the other twol.

I think partially it comes down to the demographics. Ireland was, before the English, largely unruled and primitive; there wasn't really much in the way of an aristocracy. In Scotland, there was but they were English-speaking before the English came along - Wales would have been the only country of the three that was sufficiently both modern and alien to be deemed a threat worthy of extermination. Its closer proximitry to the central spheres of English influence also played a part in its earlier downfall.

 

[StarWorms]

I'm not sure Irish is a good comparison because anti-Irish sentiment used to have genuine sting and real consequences to it. Quite recently in England, especially.

That was because Ireland was/is catholic. Irish jokes aren't about catholicism, they are about stupidity.

 

[North King]

Not true, as per Verbose's post above. The difference is rather that there haven't been any films made about it!

I've never watched films on either, except a few segments from Braveheart which came on TV for five minutes.

With regards the survival of culture and language, Welsh has been far more successful than either of the other twol.

But not, as you've noted, at propagating itself. At that, Irish and Scotsmen come into their own.

I think partially it comes down to the demographics. Ireland was, before the English, largely unruled and primitive; there wasn't really much in the way of an aristocracy.

Not from what I recall. There wasn't the traditional aristocracy, but the various chiefs and kings on its soil were quite well-established.

In Scotland, there was but they were English-speaking before the English came along - Wales would have been the only country of the three that was sufficiently both modern and alien to be deemed a threat worthy of extermination.

I don't think so: look at the lengths they went to to exterminate Scotland, too. The English, I think, simply wanted their island to themselves.

Its closer proximitry to the central spheres of English influence also played a part in its earlier downfall.

Also it's smaller size made it easier to subdue as a whole, most likely.

 

[MadScotsMan]

definition of a welsh queer is a man who prefers women over rugby
I'm gonna go with Verbose on this, and Wales didn't have the recent (last several centuries) uprisings that Scotland and Ireland had, and if they did no one ever hears about them in america because almost everyone is descended from the scottish or irish

 

[Truronian]

For example - it still seems to be OK to make jokes about Wales. People who profess to the most liberal of views often think nothing of cracking the occasional sheep "joke", but when you think about it these are basically racial stereotyping. Few people would dream of making jokes about Jews being miserly, and by now even Irish jokes are considered quite dubious - so why is it still OK to knock Wales? I'm not accusing people who have made such jokes to be racists (and frankly I don't find them particularly insulting - a good insult should be *original*), just wondering why they seem to have slipped through the PC net that has (rightfully) discouraged other such jokes.

The difference is that people genuinely believed (maybe still belief) in some of the stereotypes of Jewish/black/Irish(to a lesser extent) jokes. No one really thinks the Welsh get their jollies copulating with sheep, in the same way no-one truly thinks all Scots are drunks or that all people in the north are miners.

Wales seems to be sidelined again and again, and I don't mean so much from an economic or political point of view but from peoples' minds, as if people are trying to pretend they don't exist. I remember meeting some Americans while abroad, and they had never even heard of Wales - but of course, they'd heard of Scotland and Ireland. In Germany, many people I met assumed that the Welsh language was some derivative of English, even though they were often fully aware of the nature of the Irish, Breton and even Scots Gaelic languages (still, at least they'd heard of the place).

Welsh history is almost never taught in schools - growing up in Barry, Glamorgan, in history lessons we learned about Sir Walter Raleigh, Elizabeth I, Martin Luther King, JFK, and even Nikita Kruschev but we were never taught a thing about our own history.

Many English people I meet in Wales seem to regard the locals as unfriendly or even hostile; well, can you blame them when this is the way they are looked upon by the outside world? At best, we seem to be a novelty, a tourist attraction; at worst, we simply don't exist (re the EU map of Europe that even ommitted the physical presence of Wales). It's not hostility towards us that worries me so much, but the ignorance.

Meh. We have it worse down here in Cornwall.

 

[MadScotsMan]

The difference is that people genuinely believed (maybe still belief) in some of the stereotypes of Jewish/black/Irish(to a lesser extent) jokes. No one really thinks the Welsh get their jollies copulating with sheep, in the same way no-one truly thinks all Scots are drunks or that all people in the north are miners.



Meh. We have it worse down here in Cornwall.

Cornish nationlism? Sounds like a food... Hasn't Cornwall been part of England since the 500 AD though? I know it was celtic with its own languange and everything.

 

[Elponitnatsnoc]

First of all, I have the most stereotypically Welsh name ever (I'm serious), but I'm not Welsh (nor is my ancestry, but that's a long story). Everyone who knows about the Wales assumes I am Welsh, so I'm naturally inclined to learn about my assumed "homeland".

Anyway, in America, Wales is thought of as a state-like entity. Most people assume Scotland is a country, but they know that Wales is a part of Great Britain, or is affiliated with Great Britain in some manner. Wales is a very low profile country, and nothing really "happens" very much. It's sort of like Maine or Nebraska, it's mostly farm and country, nobody particularly famous is from there, and people live life one day at a time. To be honest, nobody really is informed enough about Wales to make sheep jokes at all, it just isn't viewed with much interest.

 

[Leonel]

That happens in the US too. Even the most ardent egalitarian communist will still lavish the poorer working class of the southern states with scorn and venom. I think it's a city thing.

 

[Truronian]

Cornish nationlism? Sounds like a food... Hasn't Cornwall been part of England since the 500 AD though? I know it was celtic with its own languange and everything.

I think it was in the 800's... we even had our own rebellion in the 15th century! It ...err ...didn't end well. Also, there is some dispute about whether we are "English" at all.

Its all for giggles really though. An independent Cornwall would collapse economically, and I doubt a Cornish assembly would achieve anything constructive.

 

[Godwynn]

I'm sorry, how on earth is this justification for the statement

You need to familiarize yourself with how we roll here at CFC. Joking, poking, and prodding are a must.

Just ask VRWCAgent. We go back and forth about North v. South.

 

[Atlas14]

"Look at him. He runs like a Welshman. Doesn't he run like a Welshman? Doesn't he? I think he runs like a Welshman. "
--- Stewie Griffin

 

[mrt144]

Welsh people complain too much about their image.

 

[Arwon]

That was because Ireland was/is catholic. Irish jokes aren't about catholicism, they are about stupidity.

I'm actualy being more specific to the English context than that... I mean, we do Irish jokes in Australia too. I'm thinking more of the Irish troubles and the discrimination against Irish folks that this engendered in England. Which resulted in things like the Birmingham Six and Guildford Four, where people were essentially arrested, tortured and convicted of crime for being Irish. As recently as the 1980s.

When your joke group is getting arrested and beaten and stuff, it moves a bit beyond harmless jokes and into the realm of actual discrimination and real nastiness. I'm not saying the English are all racists or anything like that, just that I don't think you should compare the English view of the Irish to the English view of the Welsh.

 

[Figaro]

I'm actualy being more specific to the English context than that... I mean, we do Irish jokes in Australia too. I'm thinking more of the Irish troubles and the discrimination against Irish folks that this engendered in England. Which resulted in things like the Birmingham Six and Guildford Four, where people were essentially arrested, tortured and convicted of crime for being Irish. As recently as the 1980s.

When your joke group is getting arrested and beaten and stuff, it moves a bit beyond harmless jokes and into the realm of actual discrimination and real nastiness. I'm not saying the English are all racists or anything like that, just that I don't think you should compare the English view of the Irish to the English view of the Welsh.

When drawing attention to the jokes, my point was not so much that nobody else gets jokes made about them - people will always crack jokes about people from other countries, I've done so myself. And I don't believe there is any more malice in a Welsh joke than an Irish one. What I was complaining about is that, in the establishment, it seems somehow more "acceptable" to joke about Wales than many other places. Like I said in the OP, Blair's comments, if made about any other nationality, would likely have caused much more complaint.

 

[MadScotsMan]

I think it was in the 800's... we even had our own rebellion in the 15th century! It ...err ...didn't end well. Also, there is some dispute about whether we are "English" at all.

Its all for giggles really though. An independent Cornwall would collapse economically, and I doubt a Cornish assembly would achieve anything constructive.

hahaha the Prince of Wales is the Duke of Cornwall! Yeah, anybody who rebells against the english seems to be crushed very, very swiftly. Or it's prolonged, like the Jacobite rebellion. And I think an independent Cornwall could do very well, they would just have to import much from England and, um be part of England.
Turns out, I do have Welsh in the line, but that side of the family has been in America since before the revolution....

 

[mangxema]

To be fair, Americans don't give a crap about a lot of countries.

 

[StarWorms]

I'm actualy being more specific to the English context than that... I mean, we do Irish jokes in Australia too. I'm thinking more of the Irish troubles and the discrimination against Irish folks that this engendered in England. Which resulted in things like the Birmingham Six and Guildford Four, where people were essentially arrested, tortured and convicted of crime for being Irish. As recently as the 1980s.

When your joke group is getting arrested and beaten and stuff, it moves a bit beyond harmless jokes and into the realm of actual discrimination and real nastiness. I'm not saying the English are all racists or anything like that, just that I don't think you should compare the English view of the Irish to the English view of the Welsh.

I'm comparing the views in the jokes: A lighthearted joke about dumb Irish, and a lighthearted joke about sheep-loving Welsh.

 

[6underground]

To be fair, the reason that Welsh History isn't covered that much in school curriculum in Wales is because it was feared (by Westminster) to invoke nationalism in the Welsh. To an extent, this remains true today.

Welsh schools aren't really permitted to teach that much Welsh history because the government fears a resurfacing of Welsh nationalism or nationalist tendencies. There really is no other explanation for it IMHO.

I had to learn much of my own history outside of school, which is a travesty in itself but until the government changes its stance, it'll likely stay.

That said, the current curriculum allows for some Welsh history to be taught as opposed to nothing in the 1960's, where not even the language was officially allowed to be taught.

As for having a low-profile, I think this is down to the fact that the Welsh people, are probably the quietest out of all our Celtic Bretheren. While our Scottish and Irish friends are off making a song and dance about some issue, we're usually the ones thinking out some sexy-low key plan