Three Reasons Should Never Read Their Forums

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Link, thanks to the people at Slashdot.
Three Reasons Creators Should Never Read Their Forums

If I have learned anything from writing Indie games for a living for fifteen years (and there are plenty who would say that I haven't), it is that it is usually a bad idea for creators to visit online forums discussing them and their work. It doesn't lead to happy ends.

This is why big, smart companies with actual budgets hire community people who do nothing but deal with and sift through forums. Managing fans is real work, and picking out the realistic and worthwhile comments takes a ton of time and judgment. That is why smart companies put a layer between the fans and the creators. If you don't have this layer, you should keep a safe, respectful distance.

It's a pity. My company, Spiderweb Software, has a really awesome, active online forum. Been there for years. Always active, full of all sorts of discussions. However, unless I've just released a game and are looking for signs of early, evil bugs, I have to stay away from it.

Some of my fans really resent this and take it personally, and they haven't been shy about letting me know. But if you've ever wondered why the creators of your beloved games often avoid the forums (especially the Word of Warcraft forums, Yeesh!), this might help you to understand why.

1. It's Not Productive To Read How Much People Hate You

It's been said that, if you want a healthy marriage, you have to say five kind things for every unkind thing. It is in our nature to gloss over and ignore kind words, but to really fixate on and get affected by unkind ones. This is why Facebook will never have a Don't Like button. If you see "Joe likes your post," well, fine. If the average online denizen see "Joe doesn't like this," he or she will probably freak out.

Which brings us to forums.

A few years ago, I wrote an article for IGN about how I felt that Indie games were far from the only source of innovation, and the big companies don't get enough credit for trying to make innovative things. Slashdot was kind enough to link to it. Someone might agree or disagree with me. Fine. But someone wrote this ...


"This is the kind of commentary I'd expect out of a cynical independent ripoff artist in action, really. You know, the kind of person who is too afraid and closed-minded to try anything new, partly because he doesn't want to lose his money or reputation - a sound judgement - and partly because he just doesn't seem to want to try. ... In other words, nothing to see here. Just near-mindless droning from another cynic with a rather skewed and defeated view of the gaming world."


WHOA! DUDE! What did I ever do to you? Did I run over your dog? Make out with your mom? Go to where you work and mess up the settings on the fry vat? Damn!

Now, I thought that one was pretty funny. I sent links to it to my friends, saying, "Hey! Look what people REALLY think of me!" Over the years, I've developed a pretty think skin. And yet, if you read lots of people dumping on you, unless you have super-human emotional control, it's eventually going to get to you. Sometimes I'll get weak and look at a forum and see some nasty cheap shot and it'll throw me off my game for hours.

Remember, as Penny Arcade put it (in a far superior and NSFW way), anonymity plus audience makes [butt crevices]. (And, for what it's worth, the creators of Penny Arcade don't read their forums either.)

It's a little different on my company's forums. But only a little. Even though it is mainly populated by my fans, it is still full of shots at my design skill, game quality, virility, and facial complexion. Remember, there's a thin line between love and hate. Nobody will lash out at you like a disappointed fan.

When I read the forums for, say, World of Warcraft or xkcd, I'm always amazed at how nasty things get. It makes me think, "If you hate it so much, why are you there?" But that's just the way it is, and excess exposure to insults can really get under your skin, make you doubt yourself, and interfere with your work. It's very sad, but you sometimes need to just protect yourself by staying away. Keep your brain clean.

2. It's Not Going To Be Helpful

It seems like reading forums would be a good way to get design ideas and learn ways to improve your games. With the exception of learning about bugs, this is usually not the case.

It can be tempting, when you're stuck designing a game, to read forums and look for feedback. The problem is this. No matter what the question is, there are people who will advocate strongly for both sides of it. Many of these people reflexively hate change. Many of these people are only happy if the game is much harder (or much easier). Some of them will not, in fact, have a realistic idea about anything. Often, there are issues where intelligent people can come to opposite conclusions, and you can read thousands of furious posts on either side of the issue without getting an inch closer to an actual decision.

Forums contain a cacophony of people telling you to do diametrically opposite things, very loudly, often for bad reasons. There will be plenty of good ideas, but picking them out from the bad ones is unreliable and a lot of work. If you try to make too many people happy at once, you will drive yourself mad. You have to be very, very careful who you let into your head.

Of course, it is still very important for designers to get lots of good, constructive criticism. That is why I have built up an elite cadre of awesome beta testers and interested friends, and I listen to them very closely. And, I must point out, many of those testers were recruited from my forums. You just need to choose carefully the people you ask for advice.

3. You Might Get Suckered Into Getting Angry

Not much to say about this. If you read forums for long enough, you will read a lot of nasty comments and cheap shots. If you read enough cheap shots, you'll get angry. If you are angry enough, you will eventually lash out and flame back.

Snapping angrily at your customers never, ever leads to good results.

One Final Comment

I'm sure some of my fellow Indie developers are reading this and shaking their heads at my idiocy. A lot of developers do maintain close relationships with their forums. It works for them, for now. I'm glad for them, and I hope it keeps working.

Just bear this in mind. When you start out and gain your first following, you get a grace period. You're a fresh face, making awesome new things. Everyone loves you. And, most importantly, you haven't had a chance to start disappointing chunks of your fan base yet.

The longer you are active, the more of your fans will turn on you, justified or not.

And, if you are a member of my forums reading this, know this. I love you guys. The idea that anyone wants to discuss my work at all, even to dump on it, is insanely flattering. I just hope that this makes clearer the instincts of efficiency and self-preservation that lead me to keep a little bit of distance.
I think it's great advice. In CFC alone you see threads like this (shameful), plus arguments that can be boiled down to (stupid) complexity vs simplicity, and the many (mostly crap) suggestions of armchair designers (not that I like Civ anymore, but still).
 
2. It's Not Going To Be Helpful

It seems like reading forums would be a good way to get design ideas and learn ways to improve your games. With the exception of learning about bugs, this is usually not the case.

:rolleyes:

The author makes it sound like learning about serious flaws in your game is something that can be brushed aside so that the creator's feelings aren't hurt.
 
:rolleyes:

The author makes it sound like learning about serious flaws in your game is something that can be brushed aside so that the creator's feelings aren't hurt.

Well, he did say he also skims the forums after game releases to look for bugs and sich. I think what he's talking about is what actor Sokka calls "another fan with 'ideas'".
 
:rolleyes:

The author makes it sound like learning about serious flaws in your game is something that can be brushed aside so that the creator's feelings aren't hurt.
:rolleyes:

The poster makes it sound like the people on game forums actually talk about serious flaws at all, much less talk about them in a constructive fashion.

:p
 
Well, he did say he also skims the forums after game releases to look for bugs and sich. I think what he's talking about is what actor Sokka calls "another fan with 'ideas'".

Sometimes bad, sometimes good. Blizzard takes balancing advice for the Starcraft games from professional players, which is at it should be.

:rolleyes:

The poster makes it sound like the people on game forums actually talk about serious flaws at all, much less talk about them in a constructive fashion.

:p

Fan comments become progressively more cynical and nonconstructive the longer it takes for serious problems to be fixed. The Civ5 forum, for example, is not useful whatsoever at the moment, because all of the issues have been analyzed so much that all there's left to do is make sarcastic complaints.
 
Look, you and I both know that 95% of all fan complaints on the forums are baseless whining about stuff the fans didn't like because they're an annoying unpleasable fan base like every other one. Actual cogent comments and decent complaints about things that are bad and do need to be fixed are few and far between.
 
Or just learn how to manage your feelings about other peoples' negativity.
 
Look, you and I both know that 95% of all fan complaints on the forums are baseless whining about stuff the fans didn't like because they're an annoying unpleasable fan base like every other one. Actual cogent comments and decent complaints about things that are bad and do need to be fixed are few and far between.

So how do you suppose that legitimate criticisms and suggestions get through to the developers?
 
So how do you suppose that legitimate criticisms and suggestions get through to the developers?
Have some "community" managers specifically hired to do that for you?
 
Have some "community" managers specifically hired to do that for you?

They only pick up on the most common comments/complaints, not necessarily the most substantive.
 
This article should've been posted in the Civ5 forums. It'd probably be quite useful there.

I find point 2 to be rather important, and a nice reminder that feedback is only constructive when it is reasoned and made politely.
 
Moderator Action: ^Good point. Will probably move this elsewhere, when we decide the most useful place.
 
Sometimes bad, sometimes good. Blizzard takes balancing advice for the Starcraft games from professional players, which is at it should be.

Yeah, but the majority of people offering advice on forums aren't professional players, they're whiny little brats who can't spell or reason.
 
Yahtzee said it better: "Fans are clingy, complaining [dipsticks] who will never, ever be grateful for any concession you make. The moment you shut out their shrill, tremulous voices, the happier you'll be for it."

[censored for CFC]
 
Hey that's the best definition for the civ subforums i've ever seen !
 
Spending a lot of time on gaming forums - other than this one - has helped wean me off of my need to post, because you just can't respond to every moron out there.

...unless there's postcount, of course.
 
I dunno, but this is reminiscent of one of those "Everyone is beautiful" kind of spiel. You know, a lot of the time, people complain because your game does suck.

I have personally disagreed with design decisions myself, but I wouldn't see complaints about that as objective appraisals of the merits of a game. There's always going to be something subjective, fine. But what about, say, complaints about poor AI, which is one of the big complaints about Civ 5 that I've seen? Is that just another instance of 'haters' doing their thing?
 
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