TIL: Today I Learned

[Samson]

That is not true (are you accounting for violent death and infant mortality?).



Really? Like what? Hunter-gatherers that eat cheeseburgers don't count.

Below is a table of causes of death in the Hiwi hunter-gatherers of Venezuela (from this paper). Note that infectious disease counts for more than half of deaths in most demographics, equalled by birth problems in infants. I think the main components of infectious disease are:

1 - Diarrhea, mostly prevented by hygiene and antibiotics
2 - Viral diseases such as measles, mostly prevented by vaccination
3 - Tooth decay, mostly prevented by oral hygiene and preventative dentistry
4 - Respiratory infections (mostly pneumonia), mostly prevented by antibiotics

Also note that 21% of women who died between the ages of 10 and 39 died in childbirth. This is prevented in modern societies by preventative medicine, organised and trained midwifery with some input from the more high tech treatments. These will also impact child neonatal survival.

Spoiler :

This is just one tribe. The overall death rate with 4 others is compared here, there are differences but none are exactly great.

 

[Mouthwash]

Okay, look. I am not claiming that hunter-gatherers lived in perfect health, I'm saying that we did not evolve with floss and therefore likely don't need it (and even if we do, that's a consequence of eating food we aren't designed for).

 

[Lexicus]

Okay, look. I am not claiming that hunter-gatherers lived in perfect health, I'm saying that we did not evolve with floss and therefore likely don't need it (and even if we do, that's a consequence of eating food we aren't designed for).

"Need" is a slippery word.

 

[Samson]

Okay, look. I am not claiming that hunter-gatherers lived in perfect health, I'm saying that we did not evolve with floss and therefore likely don't need it (and even if we do, that's a consequence of eating food we aren't designed for).

That is fair enough, as long as you are realistic in what you mean be "need". If you do not floss it COULD kill you, but that is unlikely especially if you have access to dentistry to remove rotten teeth. However there is a pretty good chance it will cost you some years of having (some of) your own teeth.

 

[civvver]

Well I can get on board with that last part. If we didn't eat sugar and processed foods we probably wouldn't have much tooth decay.

Do you know how long one has to wait before being able to rinse safely again? What about using mouthwash to rinse?

None of the articles say so I don't know. Actually the evidence may be inconclusive but I am trying not to rinse after for now.

http://www.oralanswers.com/rinse-after-brushing/

I haven't had cavities since I was a kid, the dentist always says my teeth and gums are awesome and asks how often I floss. I lie and say every other day just about, when in reality it's maybe once a week. I don't even brush twice a day! I always brush in the morning to get rid of bad breath, then sometimes during the day if I ate something stinky, but I rarely brush before bed. I don't eat tons of sugar but I do drink a lot of acidic drinks. So I ought to be riddled with cavities and gum disease but my teeth are in great shape. I think a lot of it is just genetics.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

TIL that Manhattan's orderly grid gives way to madness south of 14th St.

 

[Mouthwash]

That is fair enough, as long as you are realistic in what you mean be "need". If you do not floss it COULD kill you, but that is unlikely especially if you have access to dentistry to remove rotten teeth. However there is a pretty good chance it will cost you some years of having (some of) your own teeth.

AFAIK flossing removes bits of food stuck between your teeth. Why is this a problem for a modern diet and not for a hunter-gatherer one?

 

[Synobun]

We'll let you think about that question for a while and you can get back to us about the answer.

(Hint: It was a problem.)

 

[Lexicus]

We'll let you think about that question for a while and you can get back to us about the answer.

(Hint: It was a problem.)

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...806/ancient-chompers-were-healthier-than-ours

"Hunter-gatherers had really good teeth," says Alan Cooper, director of the Australian Centre for Ancient DNA. "[But] as soon as you get to farming populations, you see this massive change. Huge amounts of gum disease. And cavities start cropping up."

 

[Synobun]

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...806/ancient-chompers-were-healthier-than-ours

"Hunter-gatherers had really good teeth," says Alan Cooper, director of the Australian Centre for Ancient DNA. "[But] as soon as you get to farming populations, you see this massive change. Huge amounts of gum disease. And cavities start cropping up."

Eat sugary/carb-heavy stuff and teeth get damaged. Some hunter-gatherer populations dealt with the same problem but less regularly because they were too preoccupied with their limited and problematic diet.

The argument being made isn't that ancient humans were walking around with no teeth because they didn't floss. The argument being made is that their dental health would have been better if they flossed. A better baseline doesn't mean modern dental hygiene tactics become defunct. It would improve upon the better baseline that already exists.

Dental health has always been a problem in humans. A restricted diet before agriculture and during the reliance of herd tracking involved less problems but they still had problems. Problems which are solved or reduced with modern dental hygiene. Like flossing.

 

[Mouthwash]

Owen's claim was that flossing is very important. I'm countering that hunter-gatherers had a reasonably healthy set of teeth throughout life, without flossing. What's so hard about that?

 

[Lohrenswald]

hunter-gatherers didn't consume much sugary stuff

 

[Synobun]

Owen's claim was that flossing is very important. I'm countering that hunter-gatherers had a reasonably healthy set of teeth throughout life, without flossing. What's so hard about that?

A 14% cavity rate (not including other dental problems that can't be reasonably estimated) would have likely been much less had they brushed their teeth and flossed.

Your counter is intellectually bankrupt because it assumes less problems equals no problems. That flossing, somehow, only impacts us but wouldn't have impacted them because... they had better teeth...? If flossing would have turned that 14% figure into 10%, that's a sizable improvement.

One could even say an important one.

 

[Mouthwash]

A 14% cavity rate (not including other dental problems that can't be reasonably estimated) would have likely been much less had they brushed their teeth and flossed.

Your counter is intellectually bankrupt because it assumes less problems equals no problems. That flossing, somehow, only impacts us but wouldn't have impacted them because... they had better teeth...? If flossing would have turned that 14% figure into 10%, that's a sizable improvement.

One could even say an important one.

Brushing solves a problem that evolution can't solve. But evolution should be able to shape our mouths so that whatever gets stuck in our teeth doesn't cause damage to our gums.

 

[Lexicus]

Eat sugary/carb-heavy stuff and teeth get damaged. Some hunter-gatherer populations dealt with the same problem but less regularly because they were too preoccupied with their limited and problematic diet.

The argument being made isn't that ancient humans were walking around with no teeth because they didn't floss. The argument being made is that their dental health would have been better if they flossed. A better baseline doesn't mean modern dental hygiene tactics become defunct. It would improve upon the better baseline that already exists.

Dental health has always been a problem in humans. A restricted diet before agriculture and during the reliance of herd tracking involved less problems but they still had problems. Problems which are solved or reduced with modern dental hygiene. Like flossing.

My point was exactly that the type of food consumed matters, which Mouthwash was ignoring. Refined carbohydrates as far as I am aware were not a large part of the hunter-gatherer diet.

 

[Synobun]

Brushing solves a problem that evolution can't solve. But evolution should be able to shape our mouths so that whatever gets stuck in our teeth doesn't cause damage to our gums.

Evolution couldn't care less about what it should or shouldn't do based on a human's perspective.

 

[Mouthwash]

My point was exactly that the type of food consumed matters, which Mouthwash was ignoring. Refined carbohydrates as far as I am aware were not a large part of the hunter-gatherer diet.

I don't eat carbs. So would you be willing to admit that flossing isn't important for me?

Evolution couldn't care less about what it should or shouldn't do based on a human's perspective.

 

[Lexicus]

I don't eat carbs. So would you be willing to admit that flossing isn't important for me?

Well, as Vincour pointed out flossing will still improve things regardless of what type of food is consumed. I would guess that it would help you less than someone like me, but it's still worth doing, just like checking your poops

I floss way less often than I should, and have already paid with a couple of cavities on the parts of my teeth that are cleaned by flossing.

 

[Gori the Grey]

But evolution should be able to shape our mouths so that whatever gets stuck in our teeth doesn't cause damage to our gums.

Evolution only needs to get you a little ways into the age where you can reproduce.

If you don't want to live any longer than that, then by all means rely solely on what evolution has provided you toward a lifespan.

If you want to live longer than that, floss. Modern medicine suggests doing so will add years to your life, and teeth to those years.

But, dude, it's your choice. By all means base your health regimen on what you assume to be have been true of populations with sub-modern levels of longevity. Do you base your other health-related activities on hunter-gatherers? Do you spend most of your day walking, punctuated with bursts of hunting activity? Do you sleep outdoors in only so much cover as you can carry with you? If so, by all means, go all-in on that life style and don't floss.

I know it's presumptuous to speak on behalf of CFC, but I'll presume: you have our permission to not floss. God speed.

 

[Mouthwash]

I intend to floss. I just take issue with the claims being made.