Tip the pizza delivery driver!

[Lotus49]

You know I think tipping is like calling someone 'sir', at least for me anyway. I only call a man 'sir', when he comes across in such away that I perceive it's going to bring me more trouble than it's worth, if I don't do it.

For example, a very high ranking officer walks up to my desk and asks about something. He's insistent, authoritative, stern, expects me to 'snap to it', and has a certain 'I am God over you' vibe going, and you can just tell that if you don't respond in the way he expects you to respond - well, it won't be worth it, for you. So you call him sir, you treat him the way a general expects to be treated (or in my case at least put forth an apparent effort) and he goes on his way... looking for other fish to fry.

That's like tipping. "Here, take my money... I'm under pressure, and it's much easier for me to lose a few bucks than to *gasp* face the consequences of 'going against the grain'."

This is something that just happened to me, and for some reason I related it to this discussion. Anyway, the point is... it just ain't right. Putting people under pressure, purely for your own ego (or wallet) pumping pleasure.

 

[Gogf]

You know I think tipping is like calling someone 'sir', at least for me anyway. I only call a man 'sir', when he comes across in such away that I perceive it's going to bring me more trouble than it's worth, if I don't do it.

For example, a very high ranking officer walks up to my desk and asks about something. He's insistent, authoritative, stern, expects me to 'snap to it', and has a certain 'I am God over you' vibe going, and you can just tell that if you don't respond in the way he expects you to respond - well, it won't be worth it, for you. So you call him sir, you treat him the way a general expects to be treated (or in my case at least put forth an apparent effort) and he goes on his way... looking for other fish to fry.

That's like tipping. "Here, take my money... I'm under pressure, and it's much easier for me to lose a few bucks than to *gasp* face the consequences of 'going against the grain'."

This is something that just happened to me, and for some reason I related it to this discussion. Anyway, the point is... it just ain't right. Putting people under pressure, purely for your own ego (or wallet) pumping pleasure.

In the United States, servers are paid less than in other parts of the world. That's because, in America, the consumer is expected to pay their waiter directly, instead of going through a middleman. This means that you get to choose how much he gets paid. I don't see how allowing the consumer to determine his wages constitutes "putting people under pressure."

 

[Lotus49]

In the United States, servers are paid less than in other parts of the world. That's because, in America, the consumer is expected to pay their waiter directly, instead of going through a middleman. This means that you get to choose how much he gets paid. I don't see how allowing the consumer to determine his wages constitutes "putting people under pressure."

OK let's just suppose I'm not privy to this industry insider information, and just walk into a restaurant or order a pizza, and expect to pay what is written.

Here's the deal; the restaurant is sure as heck gonna get their money for the food. Obviously the retail price of the meal is nice and inflated, and now you're telling me they're going to underpay their servers. Great, so I'm supposed to pick up that slack (otherwise receive bad looks, and spit next time I visit). So, I cough up the 15%. Then it's up to the waiter as to whether or not he feels like telling the IRS exactly how much I did/didn't tip him.

It's one big flippin' racket. Anybody with half a wit of financial sense can see that. Count me out. It's all designed to extract as much cash out of my wallet as possible, and keep me living paycheck to paycheck, on credit in fact, and have a -2% savings rate. Hey guess what, I don't participate, and thus have almost nothing in common financially speaking with my peers.

But, go ahead - criticize me.

 

[Gogf]

OK let's just suppose I'm not privy to this industry insider information, and just walk into a restaurant or order a pizza, and expect to pay what is written.

Here's the deal; the restaurant is sure as heck gonna get their money for the food. Obviously the retail price of the meal is nice and inflated, and now you're telling me they're going to underpay their servers. Great, so I'm supposed to pick up that slack (otherwise receive bad looks, and spit next time I visit). So, I cough up the 15%. Then it's up to the waiter as to whether or not he feels like telling the IRS exactly how much I did/didn't tip him.

You clearly don't understand the system. Whether that's because you haven't actually read any of the posts that you've replied to or because you're being intentionally obtuse isn't quite as clear. Either way, multiple people have made how tipping works extremely clear. If you're too busy whining about "insider information" that everybody knows to actually debate the merits of the system, then I don't see how you can really expect to be taken seriously by anyone. Stop repeating the same, tired, preposterous straw man—if you want to have a real debate, air a legitimate grievance with the actual system.

 

[Ansar]

So can I be cheap and still be treated well?

 

[LightFang]

He's just trying to set himself up as a victim or something of the evil tippers who are ruining America! ;_;

Either that or we're all sheep because we tip people.

 

[Mise]

The problem is, the "American system" that everyone's rambling about as if it's some unique codified constitutionally protected natural human right was made up over several posts during this thread. It's not a "custom", in the sense that kissing 4 times a close friend on meeting is a custom in France, it's just some fabricated story to try to explain away the difference between spitting in someone's pizza and a criminal offence.

So Gofg, I suggest you take your own advice, and re-read the thread. You'll see quite clearly, over the course of 20 or so riveting pages, how the "American system" was progressively fabricated.


(It's actually incredibly interesting how people on both sides of the fence have become so involved in the thread over the past 500 posts that they've lost sight of where the argument came from, and how it got to where it is now. It's clear to me that the "American system" story is, in fact, a story.)

 

[Gogf]

The problem is, the "American system" that everyone's rambling about as if it's some unique codified constitutionally protected natural human right was made up over several posts during this thread. It's not a "custom", in the sense that kissing 4 times a close friend on meeting is a custom in France, it's just some fabricated story to try to explain away the difference between spitting in someone's pizza and a criminal offence.

So Gofg, I suggest you take your own advice, and re-read the thread. You'll see quite clearly, over the course of 20 or so riveting pages, how the "American system" was progressively fabricated.


(It's actually incredibly interesting how people on both sides of the fence have become so involved in the thread over the past 500 posts that they've lost sight of where the argument came from, and how it got to where it is now. It's clear to me that the "American system" story is, in fact, a story.)

It's posts like this that are utterly hilarious to me. My thoughts about how tipping works are not based on what's written in this thread, as you seem to think. I know how tipping works because I live in America. Being told that the actual system is "a fabrication" by someone who lives in England is absurd beyond words.

I have NEVER heard of a restaurant employee spitting in anyone's food outside of the movies and this thread. I'm sure there are a few cases of it happening, but it's nowhere near common—even for people who don't tip.

 

[Whomp]

Let me see if I can add an example. Granted, this is likely Chicago specific but here it goes.

If I'm sitting at the bar and assume there are no other seats at the bar. In Chicago, people leave money in front of them so the bartender can get drinks and make change for round two. Sometimes you can push money into the well and they understand that's for them. However, if the bartender sees Mr. "Alligator Arms" pocket his cash and leave the silver on the bar or pushes it in the well then chances are when it comes time for round two the person with money on the bar and has tipped will undoubtedly be served first.

They're looking out for where their bread is buttered. Pretty simple, really.

 

[Gogf]

What I think is going on here is that people can't understand why we're willing to willfully give away our money when we're not obligated to. Setting aside social pressures (which are certainly a huge factor), not tipping just feels wrong, because we know that servers' wages are based on the assumption that they will get tips. We are given a certain power over our server, and most people feel that not tipping constitutes an unethical abuse of that power.

People who haven't grown up in a culture with tipping and well understood obviously don't understand the system very well. Their first reaction is to think "this is just another American scheme to squeeze me out of my last dime." Of course, this attitude ignores the fact that American servers are paid less than their European counterparts, and, more importantly, that you are not obligated to tip. So they invent bogus reasons why they need to tip, like "they'll spit in my food if I don't tip."

Even if this nonsensical paranoia were true, it wouldn't matter, because you should ALWAYS tip anyway.

Of course, this line of thinking quickly progresses to the "evil corporation conclusion". Lotus brought that up a couple posts ago. Based on very limited data and a couple unfair comparisons, it's determined that American restaurants charge as much or more for their food than European ones. According to anti-tipping logic, this means that American restaurants overcharge the consumer, that they underpay their servers, and that they expect to consumer to pick up the tab. Even if we, through some sort of fair determination, decided that American restaurants charge their customers more than their European counterparts, this logic would still be wrong. Food would just be more expensive in America. There would, of course, be an increase in cost over that if tipping were eliminating.

For those of you who still can't fathom that people aren't so selfish as to never tip unless forced to, there's an interesting chapter for you in Freakonomics.

 

[warpus]

Gogf

When I moved to North America and first started eating out/taking cabs, I was told by virtually everyone that tipping is something you do for a job well done - but that 10-15% is usually expected anyway. I was told it's an optional gratuity - but most people tip anyway.

If the tipping culture wasn't such a taboo to discuss, perhaps there would be less of a misunderstanding.

Your above post explains the system beautifully - why is there such a taboo on establishments and/or servers/waiters to explain it as well as you did?

It seems like they want to eat their cake and have it too.

Having said all that remember that I'm one of those people who tips well (unless the service is bad, in which case I'll tip 2-5%, or whatever I feel may be appropriate)

 

[Irish Caesar]

why is there such a taboo on establishments and/or servers/waiters to explain it as well as you did?

Good question, and I'm not really sure, but...

Tipping is the polite thing to do, I think; nobody teaches manners in public unless someone's are lacking to the point of being completely out of line. If you never learned to say, "please," chances are, the restaurants and the servers aren't going to teach you. Same goes with tipping.

I never knew the economic situation behind tipping servers, I just feel dirty if I don't leave an appropriate tip.

 

[FredLC]

What I think is going on here is that people can't understand why we're willing to willfully give away our money when we're not obligated to. Setting aside social pressures (which are certainly a huge factor), not tipping just feels wrong, because we know that servers' wages are based on the assumption that they will get tips. We are given a certain power over our server, and most people feel that not tipping constitutes an unethical abuse of that power.

People who haven't grown up in a culture with tipping and well understood obviously don't understand the system very well. Their first reaction is to think "this is just another American scheme to squeeze me out of my last dime." Of course, this attitude ignores the fact that American servers are paid less than their European counterparts, and, more importantly, that you are not obligated to tip. So they invent bogus reasons why they need to tip, like "they'll spit in my food if I don't tip."

Even if this nonsensical paranoia were true, it wouldn't matter, because you should ALWAYS tip anyway.

Of course, this line of thinking quickly progresses to the "evil corporation conclusion". Lotus brought that up a couple posts ago. Based on very limited data and a couple unfair comparisons, it's determined that American restaurants charge as much or more for their food than European ones. According to anti-tipping logic, this means that American restaurants overcharge the consumer, that they underpay their servers, and that they expect to consumer to pick up the tab. Even if we, through some sort of fair determination, decided that American restaurants charge their customers more than their European counterparts, this logic would still be wrong. Food would just be more expensive in America. There would, of course, be an increase in cost over that if tipping were eliminating.

For those of you who still can't fathom that people aren't so selfish as to never tip unless forced to, there's an interesting chapter for you in Freakonomics.

Well, my view of this thread is altogether different. The suggesting of "spitting on the food if you don't tip" didn't come from people saying that they disagree with the tipping culture, but from the people defending it, in a kind of "you better tip or else" threat!

IMHO, having the "obligation of a supposedly voluntary handout over an non-obligated part of the economical relation" is being treated as something that must be this way by USians. It' mustn't. Nothing prevents that waiters "get paid" the same in US as the European counterparts - if that is true, because I tend to think pays will vary enormously, as people serving food in both places is a huge demography.

If this thread shows anything, is that business have a free cake in th delivering services - which has utterly low cost or risk for them and allows the good advertising of "free service"; costumers are generally used to this idea and get along, however failing to comply eventually; and people working with deliveries usually also tag along, but get pissed when the convention isn't respected by someone, even though it is a right not to respect it!

While the fight is between delivery professionals ands costumers, I doubt it will get anywhere, You guys want to change it, take it to the business,men, because the clients have precious little to do with the economic expectations you hold, or with the fact that your bosses count "projected tips" in the building of your salary.

If you are happy with the system, though, than take tips as the random benefits they are supposed to be, and stop complaining. "There is no such thing as a free lunch" goes both ways, you know?

Regards .

 

[Whomp]

Just so people are aware of what's expected in N.A./Mexico. Here's a tip sheet.

Spoiler :

Barber/Hair Stylist – 15% to 20%
Bartender - $1 to $2 per drink or 15% to 20% of total drink bill
Bellhop - $1 per bag, $2 minimum for heavy or oversized bags
Concierge - $5 to $10
Doorperson - $1 minimum
Food Delivery Person - $2 to $5
Maitre D’ - $5 to $10 (Given discreetly)
Parking Valet - $2
Taxi Driver/Chauffeur – 15% to 20%
Waiter – 15% to 20%

If you find if your service has not been up to par then the better option is to ask for the manager. Chances are they'll comp some or all of the meal.

 

[Ansar]

So if I do not tip, I deserve bad service?

 

[woody60707]

Just so people are aware of what's expected in N.A./Mexico. Here's a tip sheet.

Spoiler :

Barber/Hair Stylist – 15% to 20%
Bartender - $1 to $2 per drink or 15% to 20% of total drink bill
Bellhop - $1 per bag, $2 minimum for heavy or oversized bags
Concierge - $5 to $10
Doorperson - $1 minimum
Food Delivery Person - $2 to $5
Maitre D’ - $5 to $10 (Given discreetly)
Parking Valet - $2
Taxi Driver/Chauffeur – 15% to 20%
Waiter – 15% to 20%

If you find if your service has not been up to par then the better option is to ask for the manager. Chances are they'll comp some or all of the meal.

When I was kid, it was 15%, now its changing to 20%. How is this happing.

 

[Gogf]

Your above post explains the system beautifully - why is there such a taboo on establishments and/or servers/waiters to explain it as well as you did?

Well, first we have to think about who wants to get this information out. Restaurants aren't going to do it, because passing out pamphlets titled "why we tip" is expensive, awkward, and brings them no real benefit. Severs aren't going to do it, because it takes a while to explain, and standing over a customer's table explaining the economics and reasons for tipping is probably likely to earn them less of a tip. The only group I can really see doing this is some sort of service employee's union.

Now, let's just say that a union does try and get this message out. How are they going to do this? Running advertisements is probably their best bet, but that's very expensive, and condensing this kind of message down into a 30 second TV-spot presents some obvious difficulties.

I think that, when it comes time to make a decision, servers are satisfied that people understand that they should tip. If you grow up here, you realize that you have an obligation to do it, and feel wrong if you don't leave a tip, regardless of whether you understand the economic basis for the system. I guess the unions representing service employees are satisfied with that.

Well, my view of this thread is altogether different. The suggesting of "spitting on the food if you don't tip" didn't come from people saying that they disagree with the tipping culture, but from the people defending it, in a kind of "you better tip or else" threat!

Well, that's true, Fred. But I think it's a little overblown. Buggfatty was blowing off steam about not being tipped, and I think his point was that people who don't tip deserve to have their food spat in. Of course, this got picked up by a lot of people who don't understand how it works and started blowing the "tipping is racketeering!" horn.

IMHO, having the "obligation of a supposedly voluntary handout over an non-obligated part of the economical relation" is being treated as something that must be this way by USians. It' mustn't. Nothing prevents that waiters "get paid" the same in US as the European counterparts - if that is true, because I tend to think pays will vary enormously, as people serving food in both places is a huge demography.

Of course we could pay our waiters like in Europe. But do we want to? The argument in favor of tipping is that it provides much better customer service and provides customers with an avenue to dock a poor server for their poor service. I, for one, actually like the system.

 

[Whomp]

So if I do not tip, I deserve bad service?

If you've decided to go against what is customary in this country then that's your call. Bad service? No. Cheapskate? Yes.
My guess is the next time you go to the same restaurant the wait staff will play rock, paper, scissors to see who gets your table.

When I was kid, it was 15%, now its changing to 20%. How is this happing.

It still is 15%. I only tip 20% to places I regularly frequent. They view us as a priority customer and we are taken care of with free drinks and they get better tips.

 

[Ansar]

My guess is the next time you go to the same restaurant the wait staff will play rock, paper, scissors to see who gets your table.

I doubt the staff pays that much attention to which customers go there.

 

[Mise]

It's posts like this that are utterly hilarious to me. My thoughts about how tipping works are not based on what's written in this thread, as you seem to think.

You seem to think I was talking about your opinions at all

Being told that the actual system is "a fabrication" by someone who lives in England is absurd beyond words.

Yet that's exactly how it happened during this thread... Some vague notion to begin with, then 3 or 4 people coming up with some supposedly authoritative rules.

I have NEVER heard of a restaurant employee spitting in anyone's food outside of the movies and this thread. I'm sure there are a few cases of it happening, but it's nowhere near common—even for people who don't tip.

Well that's reassuring...

So they invent bogus reasons why they need to tip, like "they'll spit in my food if I don't tip."

Okay, so why should I tip if I go to America? Or rather, what will happen if I don't tip?

I can deal with being served 4th or 5th at a bar; it's a response I'd expect, and I feel it's both a fair and proportional response to bad tippers. I can't, however, deal with people being arseholes. Perhaps it's yet another cultural thing, but I was always brought up to treat people as I would have them treat me, even if they don't treat me as I would treat them. In other words, even if people are wankers to me, I still treat them with basic human dignity.

And, according, not to, as you claim, Europeans who disagree with the "American system", but, as Fred pointed out, to Americans defending the system, respect for human dignity doesn't appear to extend to bad tippers.

If the service is bad, I don't go there again. I don't see the need for any additional disincentive.