To arms! China is plotting against us!

To secure a postion of world power? Commies let billions of people starve just to try and challange the one with it. I doubt hassle is a problem.
I don't think it's quite near the billion mark. But, you know, other nations are guilty of similar things. How about India? Or Britain? Guess what, even the mighty United States has done such a thing, though each to a lesser extent. China repeats the same thing the rest of the world has done, the only reason you notice it is that it's proportionally larger than the rest of the world's similar mistakes, for obvious reasons.

Impossible? How?


Well how do you propose shipping five million chinamen to California?
 
Because this Chinese government today is no longer that Chinese government of then, despite being the same entity.

Times have changed, and so have the goalposts

That is where you are mistaken. The Chinese Communist party is still an autocratic and brutal regime. The methods have changed (starvation and constant propoganda has been eliminated), but it is still a government that seeks world power and total control. If it did not want total control, why does it censor the Media? Why don't they teach what happened at Tiananmen Square? Why isn't the Democratic Party a legal party? And it still seeks world control- I doubt that Chinese general's "With America, we must control our anger for now" speech was just to scare us.

I don't think it's quite near the billion mark. But, you know, other nations are guilty of similar things. How about India? Or Britain? Guess what, even the mighty United States has done such a thing, though each to a lesser extent. China repeats the same thing the rest of the world has done, the only reason you notice it is that it's proportionally larger than the rest of the world's similar mistakes, for obvious reasons.



And yes, other countries have made those mistakes and continue to. But we have democracy and eventually got around to human rights. China hasn't and has stated it won't.

How do you propose shipping 5 million chinamen to california?

hmmm...still, the neuclear strike idea. Like saying, how do you ship a million americans to europe to invade russia or visa verca?
 
That is where you are mistaken. The Chinese Communist party is still an autocratic and brutal regime. The methods have changed (starvation and constant propoganda has been eliminated),
If the methods have changed, then why are you still citing them as justification for the expulsion of the present regime?
but it is still a government that seeks world power and total control. If it did not want total control, why does it censor the Media?
What, you think American media isn't censored?

Why don't they teach what happened at Tiananmen Square?
For the same reason you don't learn about the Brownsville Massacre.

Why isn't the Democratic Party a legal party?
Because then they might get voted out of power? I assure you that almost anyone who could get away with such a law would in their country. Humans are humans.

And it still seeks world control- I doubt that Chinese general's "With America, we must control our anger for now" speech was just to scare us.

Well it's quite a long way off from that goal, I'd say.

As for the general's quote, I've no idea what exactly you're on about.
 
And yes, other countries have made those mistakes and continue to. But we have democracy and eventually got around to human rights. China hasn't and has stated it won't.
The same could have been said about the United States in 1900.


hmmm...still, the neuclear strike idea.

Dude, this isn't Civ. People don't just go around and nuke eachother, that's just not how things work. There will never be anything remotely close to what you and so many other ignorant fearmongers envision as a "purely nuclear exchange," nor with teh evi1 commiez wake up one day and decide "those American sons of . .. .. .. .. .es are going down!" and pound on the big red button.

Like saying, how do you ship a million americans to europe to invade russia or visa verca?

You've no idea what you're talking about, do you?
 
Re: that "With America, we must control our anger for now" quote:
He's a PLA general! Saying stuff like that is part of his job description.

When I said the goalposts have moved, I meant this:
old = global ideological campaign to replace Capitalism with Communism, screw your own people to achieve this if need be.
new = national interests foremost. Screw ideology.

And national interests ATM are almost purely economic in nature. Of course the best military that money can buy should still be maintainded so that nobody can kick you in the nuts while you're not looking (a painful lesson learned from history).

As for the CCP itself the way I see it their concern is (1) to stay in power, or (2) to stay in power as long as possible, or if no longer possible (3) to transition peacefully into a multi-party system where they still call the shots (Singapore or Japan model), or if still no longer possible (4) to transition peacefully into a multi-party system where they no longer call the shots but still won't get lynched by angry mobs (Taiwan or South Korea model).
 
America is hopeless, doomed by its own stupidity. The Chinese hates us because we enjoy freedom; they being so utterly corrupt and evil, are bending their will singularily upon our total annihilation. The scurvy Chinese commies will come, armed with the dangerous and invincible weapon of "Marxism-Maoism" and slaughter us. They will come with the tide, and strike America like the mighty tsunami that devastated South East Asia. Who is there to protect the world from the these savage Asian Communists when we are gone?
 
It would be utterly miraculous if China could change in the way Taiwan did in the bloodless revolution.

Unfortunately I don't know if China can do so. I can see that China can change in the near future once they realize how bad communism really is.
 
The US is kinda caught in a nasty situation, actually. Yeah, China is lending it money to finance its deficits, but that is only a short-term drug. China is building up its foreign reserves to immense proportions, and when it's ready it will simply raise the value of the Yuan and voila! The Chinese will buy up the US and global economic clout will shift immediately to China. Inevitable? Perhaps. However, the methods the Chinese have gone about to make this happen sooner are questionable at best. Same story with Japan in the past? Yes, but that wasn't right either, and China has a lot more control over its economy than Japan does.

All I can say is congratulations - if you've been stupid enough to chase short term profits and ignore the long term, then you probably deserve it. I guess they can still try to fix the situation and apply real pressure to get China to revalue its currency soon. But that is unlikely to happen.
 
For the last time, the People's Republic of China is a capitalist society in all but name. The fact that the Communist Party remains the sole legal party and suppress any open opposition does not mean Chinese society today is communist. It's anything but. I very much doubt destroying the United States, one of China's main trading partners, will be in China's best interest, at least not for another 20 years. China is booming in the global economic environment. Any attempt by them to undermine that would be, at best, reckless or, at worse, suicidal.

On the political issue, China will change. It have to. Village-level elections in China introduced a few years ago have been a great success, and soon, whether the CCP like it or not, democracy will be present at higher levels of government. The main challenge of the CCP would be to liberalise without jeoperdising their survival and without the choas and corruption that usually derails the reform process.
 
It would be utterly miraculous if China could change in the way Taiwan did in the bloodless revolution.

Unfortunately I don't know if China can do so. I can see that China can change in the near future once they realize how bad communism really is.
Nah they already did. These days it's more like Fascism, but no one will admit it.
 
What exactly is the premise of the article? China attempts to ruin the United States by investing in the United States? What's next? China attempts to raise money by dumping gold bullions into the Mariana Trench?

To those who are fear-mongering, ask yourself this: How does one screw the US over by investing money in the US (especially when one is abstaining from investor voting privileges)? With their investments here, would they not have a stake in our financial well-being?

The US is kinda caught in a nasty situation, actually. Yeah, China is lending it money to finance its deficits, but that is only a short-term drug. China is building up its foreign reserves to immense proportions, and when it's ready it will simply raise the value of the Yuan and voila! The Chinese will buy up the US and global economic clout will shift immediately to China. Inevitable? Perhaps. However, the methods the Chinese have gone about to make this happen sooner are questionable at best. Same story with Japan in the past? Yes, but that wasn't right either, and China has a lot more control over its economy than Japan does.

All I can say is congratulations - if you've been stupid enough to chase short term profits and ignore the long term, then you probably deserve it. I guess they can still try to fix the situation and apply real pressure to get China to revalue its currency soon. But that is unlikely to happen.

So ... in your sequence of events ... is the Chinese government "buying up US economic clout" with the yuan or the dollar? How does one "buy up US economic clout"?

Also, in the first paragraph you characterized the act of China revaluating the yuan against the dollar as a grave threat that China is planning, but then on the second paragraph you characterized China not revaluating the yuan against the dollar as a grave treat as well. Is there any possible course of action that China can take that doesn't result you qualifying the act as a "grave threat"? (BTW, in the unlikely scenario that China dumps its dollars into the Mariana Trench, such an action would decrease the supply of the dollar thus boosting its valuation, making the yuan and associated Chinese goods cheaper, and fitting one of your definitions of belligerence.)
 
So ... in your sequence of events ... is the Chinese government "buying up US economic clout" with the yuan or the dollar? How does one "buy up US economic clout"?

Also, in the first paragraph you characterized the act of China revaluating the yuan against the dollar as a grave threat that China is planning, but then on the second paragraph you characterized China not revaluating the yuan against the dollar as a grave treat as well. Is there any possible course of action that China can take that doesn't result you qualifying the act as a "grave threat"? (BTW, in the unlikely scenario that China dumps its dollars into the Mariana Trench, such an action would decrease the supply of the dollar thus boosting its valuation, making the yuan and associated Chinese goods cheaper, and fitting one of your definitions of belligerence.)

You are clearly not thinking out of your own box. The Chinese government wouldn't the one directly buying up the US. The Chinese companies and the people are the ones who will do it. When the yuan is revalued, the Chinese yuan holders will suddenly become richer vis a vis the American dollar holders. And guess where they can get an almost infinite supply of dollars to use? Sure, if all of them suddenly convert their yuan to dollars and start buying up American companies/real estate rapidly, they might depress the value of the dollar too much. So what the Chinese government would do is to release its supply of dollars more gradually. Moreover, the government can control the value of the yuan by using its dollars to buy up excess yuan, thereby ensuring that the yuan remains stronger and the Chinese yuan holders can continue buying up a cheap USA.

The situation is already problematic for the US because China already has a large reserve of dollars due to the BOP surplus. But revaluing the yuan now is clearly better than later.

nihilistic said:
To those who are fear-mongering, ask yourself this: How does one screw the US over by investing money in the US (especially when one is abstaining from investor voting privileges)? With their investments here, would they not have a stake in our financial well-being?

I'm not saying that China is going to destroy the US or its economy. But it will be controlling much of it, at this rate. And you will see China's standards of living rise (those of the elite, anyway) while that of the US will start to fall. It's just a matter of who is becoming richer and who is becoming poorer. I don't see any problem with that per se, but China is using unacceptable methods to fast-track its way there.
 
Spoiler :
comic1b.jpg


I find this one funny in this topic:P

Spoiler :
bush-putin_China.jpg
 
To those who are fear-mongering, ask yourself this: How does one screw the US over by investing money in the US (especially when one is abstaining from investor voting privileges)? With their investments here, would they not have a stake in our financial well-being?
I'm not saying that China is going to destroy the US or its economy. But it will be controlling much of it, at this rate. And you will see China's standards of living rise (those of the elite, anyway) while that of the US will start to fall. It's just a matter of who is becoming richer and who is becoming poorer. I don't see any problem with that per se, but China is using unacceptable methods to fast-track its way there.

Which is to say, that you have no understanding of even the most basic economic concepts. The Chinese government investing money here instead of at home, obviously strengthens OUR economy rather than theirs. In fact, one of the reason the Chinese economy grew so fast is because we invested heavily in China. The second part of this quote is even ore bizarre. How the hell is China supposed to "own" us when we actually own them? Do you have any idea what percentage of China's industrial and economic base is foreign-owned and what slice of that pie belong to US investors?

So ... in your sequence of events ... is the Chinese government "buying up US economic clout" with the yuan or the dollar? How does one "buy up US economic clout"?

Also, in the first paragraph you characterized the act of China revaluating the yuan against the dollar as a grave threat that China is planning, but then on the second paragraph you characterized China not revaluating the yuan against the dollar as a grave treat as well. Is there any possible course of action that China can take that doesn't result you qualifying the act as a "grave threat"? (BTW, in the unlikely scenario that China dumps its dollars into the Mariana Trench, such an action would decrease the supply of the dollar thus boosting its valuation, making the yuan and associated Chinese goods cheaper, and fitting one of your definitions of belligerence.)
You are clearly not thinking out of your own box. The Chinese government wouldn't the one directly buying up the US. The Chinese companies and the people are the ones who will do it. When the yuan is revalued, the Chinese yuan holders will suddenly become richer vis a vis the American dollar holders. And guess where they can get an almost infinite supply of dollars to use? Sure, if all of them suddenly convert their yuan to dollars and start buying up American companies/real estate rapidly, they might depress the value of the dollar too much. So what the Chinese government would do is to release its supply of dollars more gradually. Moreover, the government can control the value of the yuan by using its dollars to buy up excess yuan, thereby ensuring that the yuan remains stronger and the Chinese yuan holders can continue buying up a cheap USA.

It's not as much a problem between me and boxes as it is a complete misunderstanding between you, basic economics, and elementary game theory. Let me teach you a lesson each in micro and macro economics:

1. Microeconomics: Currency speculation (swapping capital between different currencies in order to gain a profit) out of the blue will not result in profit. This is a lot more pronounced when the amount of money is high (and especially true when it is a significant percentage of either currency's money supply). When you begin to exchange such large sums of money from currency A to currency B, demand drives the value of currency B upwards, forcing you to pay more and more of currency A for each unit of currency B. After you've exchanged all your money from currency A to currency B, the market will begin to correct itself towards the previous equilibrium point (it may never really reach there if the amount of money you exchanged is large enough). At a later time when you exchange your currency B back to currency A, you would have to use more of currency B to obtain each subsequent unit of currency A, resulting overall in a huge percentage loss of your original holdings of currency A. The Chinese government right now is losing enormous sums of yuan every time the yuan rises, as every percentage point the yuan goes up with respect to the dollar, their 10E12 USD holdings depreciate by 10E10 USD. I don't know why you are complaining if you hate the prospect of the Chinese becoming wealthy so much.

2. Macroeconomics: Do you even know why governments keep foreign currency reserves in the first place at all? There are three mains reasons-
A. To hedge against short term volatility (which is why almost all of Chinese government's USD is invested in T-Bills and other US-government backed securities, they need very large amounts of money to become solvent in a moment's notice).
B. To depress their own currency to feed their exports (this is basically to the Chinese government putting money in American pockets to buy Chinese goods).
C. In the case of the USD, it is the currency where most of the world's petroleum is traded in, so if they want to make sure that the oil keeps flowing, they need to have a steady supply of USD.
Note that all three of these macroeconomic objectives will be threatened if they ever decide to liquidate the dollars on their hands en masse. Not to mention that their central will suffer a huge drop in terms of prestige and credibility because it speculated. Not to mention that an overwhelming percentage of their domestic industrial base is going to screwed over, inciting riots all over.

In conclusion, it's not really a failure of imagination on my part because, you see, I can actually model your scenario as if it actually plays out in reality, and gauge its consequences. You on the other hand, have nothing to offer beyond a bunch of outlandish claims that contradict each other in a most childish manner.

The situation is already problematic for the US because China already has a large reserve of dollars due to the BOP surplus. But revaluing the yuan now is clearly better than later.

For whom may I ask? And do you have justifications for your reasoning beyond fairy tales?
 
Which is to say, that you have no understanding of even the most basic economic concepts. The Chinese government investing money here instead of at home, obviously strengthens OUR economy rather than theirs. In fact, one of the reason the Chinese economy grew so fast is because we invested heavily in China. The second part of this quote is even ore bizarre. How the hell is China supposed to "own" us when we actually own them? Do you have any idea what percentage of China's industrial and economic base is foreign-owned and what slice of that pie belong to US investors?

Well, you just contradicted yourself. Now you own a slice of the pie in China. In the future, China will own a large slice of the pie in the US. The positions will then be reversed.

Investment tends to benefit both sides, that's clear. However, the profits from the investment will go to the home country, would they not? Who ends up benefiting more? Have US investments in foreign countries made it poorer? Conversely, have all the countries US invested in become wealthier compared to the US?

nihilistic said:
It's not as much a problem between me and boxes as it is a complete misunderstanding between you, basic economics, and elementary game theory. Let me teach you a lesson each in micro and macro economics:

1. Microeconomics: Currency speculation (swapping capital between different currencies in order to gain a profit) out of the blue will not result in profit. This is a lot more pronounced when the amount of money is high (and especially true when it is a significant percentage of either currency's money supply). When you begin to exchange such large sums of money from currency A to currency B, demand drives the value of currency B upwards, forcing you to pay more and more of currency A for each unit of currency B. After you've exchanged all your money from currency A to currency B, the market will begin to correct itself towards the previous equilibrium point (it may never really reach there if the amount of money you exchanged is large enough). At a later time when you exchange your currency B back to currency A, you would have to use more of currency B to obtain each subsequent unit of currency A, resulting overall in a huge percentage loss of your original holdings of currency A. The Chinese government right now is losing enormous sums of yuan every time the yuan rises, as every percentage point the yuan goes up with respect to the dollar, their 10E12 USD holdings depreciate by 10E10 USD. I don't know why you are complaining if you hate the prospect of the Chinese becoming wealthy so much.

2. Macroeconomics: Do you even know why governments keep foreign currency reserves in the first place at all? There are three mains reasons-
A. To hedge against short term volatility (which is why almost all of Chinese government's USD is invested in T-Bills and other US-government backed securities, they need very large amounts of money to become solvent in a moment's notice).
B. To depress their own currency to feed their exports (this is basically to the Chinese government putting money in American pockets to buy Chinese goods).
C. In the case of the USD, it is the currency where most of the world's petroleum is traded in, so if they want to make sure that the oil keeps flowing, they need to have a steady supply of USD.
Note that all three of these macroeconomic objectives will be threatened if they ever decide to liquidate the dollars on their hands en masse. Not to mention that their central will suffer a huge drop in terms of prestige and credibility because it speculated. Not to mention that an overwhelming percentage of their domestic industrial base is going to screwed over, inciting riots all over.

In conclusion, it's not really a failure of imagination on my part because, you see, I can actually model your scenario as if it actually plays out in reality, and gauge its consequences. You on the other hand, have nothing to offer beyond a bunch of outlandish claims that contradict each other in a most childish manner.

I studied economics, thank you very much. And you still haven't showed me how I contradicted myself, despite all your theorising.

To invest in the US, China will need dollars. And when there's enough dollars in its foreign reserve, the government can correct the exchange rate and the people can then buy the readily available dollar from the central bank for a smaller amount of yuan. Flush with dollars to spend, the Chinese can start to buy up American companies and real estate. And I did make provision for the devaluation of the US dollar due to a large supply of it suddenly becoming available. All that the Chinese central bank needs to do is not release that much dollar in one go. Only sell it to the large corporations first, for example.

The macroeconomic goals of the Chinese government would have changed by then. Instead of being the factory of the world, China would want to be the financier of the world. It's part of economic progress, isn't it?

^^^^^

QFT!!

Definatley.

Maybe you should contribute more to the topic than lap up whatever info is thrown at you that you happen to agree with. How about coming up with your own reasons and stuff?
 
So let me get this right.

China is allegedly plotting to overthrow the US, so we should make sure that we act first and overthrow China first.
Great.

I'm sure there is a post right now on the Chinese version of CFC saying "To arms! the US is plotting against us!"
 
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