Too many monkeys in the zoo

[Senethro]

You should call the issue what it is though. People will hear "overpopulation" and think you mean India and China, and that we're not responsible. I know you don't mean that, you know that, but its what will be heard. Hell, even the thread title is slightly leading. If my immigrant example didn't work for you, think of the failure of the term "global warming".

The problem is over consumption, and right now thats us (developed world), and in the short term future it'll be everyone.

That onejayhawk guy who doesn't come by anymore was wargaming that it was possible to "win" the climate crisis, so you can't say that wacky does not walk among us in various forms. Wacky will misuse "overpopulation" if you let them.

 

[AmazonQueen]

No, you're just not listening.


See above. I already answered that. Likely we've been overpopulated for @ least 100 years & @ consumption levels of 100 years ago. And of course the natural world was in a much better state back then too. So every year carrying capacity goes down.

As for solutions I never promised any but at least I'm not pretending there's no issues.

Some might argue we were screwed as soon as we started mass agriculture but I try to be more optimistic about things than that.

Re : solutions I agree we need a bit of an eco-tyranical govt severely restricting bad actions (by corporations & individuals), discipline = freedom & all that

Our current conceptions of freedom is like that Simpsons episode where every1 acts like Bart (do what you feel like day or something), unsustainable

Solution to overpopulation is well-known.
Education and healthcare, especially for women.

I'm not pretending there are no problems but I'm not happy with shifting the burden for problems we have caused onto the 3rd world which is what you seem to be doing.

 

[Narz]

I'm not happy with shifting the burden for problems we have caused onto the 3rd world which is what you seem to be doing.

Except I'm not but I guess Sethro is right & people hear what they want over & over & over despite correction

 

[EvaDK]

Some interesting data regarding energy consumption per capita:

Spoiler :

Country	2020 Total (EJ)	Total per capita (kWh)	Per capita data year	2019 electricity (billion kWh)	2019 oil (mb/d)	2020 Oil (EJ)	2020 Natural Gas (EJ)	2020 Coal (EJ)	2020 Nuclear (EJ)	2020 Hydro (EJ)	2020 Renewables (EJ)
China	145.46	28,072	2020	6,875	14,008	28.50	11.90	82.27	3.25	11.74	7.79
United States	87.79	73,677	2020	3,989	20,543	32.54	29.95	9.20	7.39	2.56	6.15
India	31.98	6,438	2020	1,229	4,920	9.02	2.15	17.54	0.40	1.45	1.43
Russia	28.31	53,895	2020	943	3,699	6.39	14.81	3.27	1.92	1.89	0.04
Japan	17.03	37,403	2020	904	3,739	6.49	3.76	4.57	0.38	0.69	1.13
Canada	13.63	100,310	2020	553	2,303	4.26	4.05	0.50	0.87	3.42	0.54
Germany	12.11	40,153	2020	517	2,346	4.21	3.12	1.84	0.57	0.17	2.21
Iran	12.03	39,785	2020	280	1,934	3.31	8.39	0.07	0.06	0.19	0.01
Brazil	12.01	15,692	2020	534	3,142	4.61	1.16	0.58	0.14	3.52	2.01
South Korea	11.79	63,865	2020	540	2,599	4.90	2.04	3.03	1.42	0.03	0.36
Saudi Arabia	10.56	84,262	2020	331	3,182	6.51	4.04				0.01
France	8.70	37,041	2020	449	1,421	2.68	1.46	0.19	3.14	0.54	0.68
Indonesia	8.10	7,753	2020	257	1,649	2.81	1.50	3.26		0.17	0.37
United Kingdom	6.89	28,211	2020	304	1,578	2.39	2.61	0.19	0.45	0.06	1.20
Mexico	6.48	13,952	2020	277	1,929	2.46	3.11	0.21	0.10	0.24	0.36
Turkey	6.29	20,716	2020	259	987	1.82	1.67	1.66		0.69	0.45
Italy	5.86	26,936	2020	303	1,255	2.13	2.44	0.21		0.41	0.67
Australia	5.57	60,660	2020	237	1,174	1.83	1.47	1.69		0.13	0.45
Thailand	5.12	20,370	2020	191	1,285	2.39	1.69	0.73		0.04	0.28
Spain	4.97	29,541	2020	245	1,328	2.21	1.17	0.07	0.52	0.24	0.77
South Africa	4.90	22,959	2020	202	623	1.02	0.15	3.48	0.14		0.11
Taiwan	4.82	56,199	2020	260	998	1.89	0.90	1.63	0.28	0.03	0.09
United Arab Emirates	4.19	117,686	2020	122	864	1.51	2.51	0.11	0.01		0.05
Malaysia	4.11	35,296	2020	150	719	1.38	1.37	1.14		0.18	0.04
Pakistan	4.11	4,369	2020	103	493	0.88	1.48	0.62	0.08	0.36	0.04
Vietnam	4.09	11,669	2020	200	495	0.98	0.31	2.10		0.61	0.08
Poland	4.01	29,453	2020	152	698	1.28	0.78	1.67		0.02	0.27
Egypt	3.65	9,899	2020	149	810	1.33	2.08	0.03		0.12	0.09
Singapore	3.42	162,192	2020	51	1,448	2.93	0.45	0.02			0.01
Netherlands	3.37	54,673	2020	113	915	1.51	1.32	0.18	0.04		0.33
Ukraine	3.31	21,048	2020	125	248	0.45	1.06	0.98	0.68	0.06	0.09
Argentina	3.15	19,352	2020	122	680	1.03	1.58	0.03	0.09	0.27	0.13
Kazakhstan	3.11	45,950	2020	92	321	0.75	0.60	1.64		0.09	0.03
Algeria	2.30	14,561	2020	67	451	0.72	1.55	0.02			0.01
Sweden	2.20	60,494	2020	129	296	0.55	0.04	0.07	0.48	0.65	0.41
Belgium	2.19	52,510	2020	84	642	0.93	0.61	0.11	0.31		0.23
Iraq	2.06	14,246	2020	46	863	1.29	0.75			0.02
Norway	1.93	98,879	2020	124	216	0.37	0.16	0.03		1.25	0.11
Uzbekistan	1.87	15,542	2020	58	98	0.16	1.55	0.10		0.06
Philippines	1.82	4,626	2020	91	527	0.75	0.14	0.73		0.06	0.15
Colombia	1.77	9,648	2020	70	352	0.55	0.50	0.27		0.39	0.05
Qatar	1.71	165,044	2020	44	294	0.45	1.26
Chile	1.61	23,348	2020	76	362	0.69	0.22	0.30		0.18	0.21
Bangladesh	1.59	2,685	2020	77	122	0.33	1.10	0.15		0.01
Czech Republic	1.54	39,883	2020	62	220	0.37	0.30	0.49	0.27	0.02	0.09
Kuwait	1.51	98,021	2020	64	342	0.76	0.74
Venezuela	1.44	14,082	2020	78	471	0.48	0.68			0.28
Turkmenistan	1.40	64,639	2020	15	153	0.28	1.13
Austria	1.38	42,676	2020	68	279	0.48	0.31	0.09		0.36	0.14
Oman	1.37	74,514	2020	32	234	0.42	0.93	0.01
Romania	1.33	19,220	2020	50	222	0.44	0.41	0.15	0.10	0.13	0.10
Finland	1.10	54,962	2020	84	207	0.35	0.07	0.13	0.21	0.14	0.19
Switzerland	1.08	34,597	2020	55	220	0.37	0.12		0.20	0.33	0.05
Israel	1.05	33,625	2020	59	232	0.42	0.41	0.17			0.05
Greece	1	26,659	2020	51	310	0.51	0.21	0.11		0.03	0.14
Peru	1	8,400	2020	49	266	0.40	0.25	0.02		0.27	0.05
Belarus	0.98	28,871	2020	33	135	0.28	0.64	0.06
Hungary	0.97	27,834	2020	42	181	0.33	0.37	0.07	0.14		0.06
Hong Kong	0.93	34,430	2020	45	405	0.61	0.18	0.14
Portugal	0.93	25,405	2020	49	249	0.41	0.22	0.02		0.11	0.17
Morocco	0.88	6,607	2020	29	307	0.50	0.03	0.28		0.01	0.06
New Zealand	0.84	48,414	2020	41	185	0.30	0.16	0.06		0.22	0.10
Ecuador	0.65	10,158	2020	26	259	0.40	0.02			0.22	0.01
Trinidad and Tobago	0.62	123,800	2020	8	35	0.08	0.54
Azerbaijan	0.62	17,037	2020	21	108	0.18	0.43			0.01
Sri Lanka	0.33	4,237	2020	14	131	0.21		0.07		0.04	0.01
Iceland		167,175	2020	19	20
Bahrain		145,193	2019	31	73
Brunei		121,637	2019	4	19
United States Virgin Islands		95,010	2019	1	16
Malta		91,685	2019	3	54
Faroe Islands		80,177	2019		6
New Caledonia		78,606	2019	3	19
Saint Pierre and Miquelon		64,130	2019		1
Luxembourg		63,726	2020	6	64
Greenland		62,156	2019	1	4
Falkland Islands		61,362	2019
Bermuda		51,713	2019	1	5
Cayman Islands		51,435	2019	1	6
Aruba		51,179	2019	1	8
Seychelles		47,768	2019	1	8
Guam		44,771	2019	2	11
Bahamas		41,170	2019	2	26
Estonia		39,024	2020	9	28
Slovenia		35,850	2020	14	55
Ireland		34,600	2020	28	159
Slovakia		31,697	2020	26	85
Antigua and Barbuda		31,385	2019		5
Puerto Rico		29,546	2019	15	79
Bhutan		29,338	2019	4	4
Panama		28,998	2019	11	144
Denmark		28,314	2020	33	165
Cook Islands		27,921	2019		1
Bulgaria		27,582	2020	31	98
Montserrat		27,374	2019
American Samoa		26,024	2019		2
Libya		25,864	2019	25	220
Turks and Caicos Islands		25,775	2019		2
Lithuania		25,365	2020	11	68
Nauru		24,818	2019
Martinique		24,598	2019	2	14
Barbados		24,537	2019	1	11
Mongolia		24,338	2019	7	36
Suriname		24,136	2019	3	16
Macau		23,858	2019	6	14
British Virgin Islands		23,486	2019		1
Cyprus		23,358	2020	5	54
Mauritius		23,278	2019	3	37
Serbia		22,784	2019	30	79
Montenegro		22,650	2019	3	8
Croatia		22,105	2020	17	72
Saint Kitts and Nevis		21,704	2019		2
Guadeloupe		21,483	2019	2	13
Laos		21,449	2019	5	19
Latvia		21,370	2020	7	40
Bosnia and Herzegovina		21,068	2019	12	35
Niue		19,975	2019
Uruguay		19,607	2019	11	50
Georgia		18,547	2019	12	32
Paraguay		18,398	2019	13	57
Maldives		17,493	2019	1	15
French Polynesia		16,894	2019	1	7
Equatorial Guinea		16,880	2019	1	22
French Guiana		16,526	2019	1	6
Reunion		15,931	2019	3	19
Lebanon		15,614	2019	19	168
Armenia		15,538	2019	6	11
Saint Lucia		14,909	2019		5
Jamaica		14,563	2019	3	61
Guyana		14,246	2019	1	18
North Macedonia		13,582	2020	6	23
Costa Rica		13,159	2019	10	63
Grenada		11,661	2019		2
Jordan		11,484	2019	17	115
Dominican Republic		11,435	2019	16	148
Albania		11,266	2019	7	26
Dominica		10,994	2019		1
Tunisia		10,435	2019	17	108
Moldova		10,374	2019	5	22
Kyrgyzstan		10,275	2019	12	32
Botswana		9,992	2019	4	22
Fiji		9,642	2019	1	12
Cuba		9,608	2019	16	164
Belize		9,247	2019	1	4
Namibia		8,738	2019	4	26
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines		8,154	2019		2
Tajikistan		8,102	2019	15	26
Samoa		7,959	2019		3
Bolivia		7,940	2019	9	88
Gabon		7,850	2019	3	14
Cape Verde		7,776	2019		7
Syria		7,325	2019	13	138
El Salvador		7,070	2019	6	59
Micronesia		6,334	2019		1
Honduras		5,803	2019	8	67
Guatemala		5,689	2019	11	113
Eswatini		5,678	2019	1	6
Republic of the Congo		4,735	2019	2	13
Nicaragua		4,372	2019	3	35
Cambodia		3,994	2019	10	64
Palestine		3,991	2019	6	25
Mauritania		3,976	2019	2	27
North Korea		3,696	2019	14	20
Angola		3,430	2019	12	133
Sao Tome and Principe		3,412	2019		1
Zambia		3,398	2019	13	25
Zimbabwe		3,375	2019	11	27
Papua New Guinea		3,316	2019	4	38
Ghana		3,294	2019	13	103
Vanuatu		3,188	2019		2
Myanmar		3,130	2019	20	146
Kiribati		2,739	2019		1
Senegal		2,703	2019	5	58
Djibouti		2,598	2019		4
Benin		2,483	2019	1	46
Nigeria		2,481	2019	25	483
Ivory Coast		2,417	2019	6	56
Mozambique		2,377	2019	13	35
Sudan		2,360	2019	10	138
Lesotho		2,293	2019	1	5
Solomon Islands		2,038	2019		2
Western Sahara		1,868	2019		2
Kenya		1,849	2019	8	116
Cameroon		1,818	2019	7	38
Timor Leste		1,682	2019		4
Yemen		1,598	2019	3	76
Comoros		1,567	2019		2
Nepal		1,530	2019	5	49
Mali		1,289	2019	3	38
Guinea		1,212	2019	2	20
Togo		1,205	2019	1	10
Haiti		1,164	2019		21
Liberia		1,112	2019		9
Gambia		1,039	2019		4
Tanzania		978	2019	7	53
Burkina Faso		952	2019	2	31
Afghanistan		946	2019	6	24
Eritrea		945	2019		5
Ethiopia		944	2019	10	108
Uganda		862	2019	4	41
Guinea Bissau		721	2019		2
South Sudan		705	2019	1	13
Madagascar		677	2019	2	21
Malawi		530	2019	1	9
Sierra Leone		528	2019		6
Rwanda		500	2019	1	8
Chad		462	2019		13
Niger		451	2019	1	14
DR Congo		403	2019	7	18
Central African Republic		328	2019		2
Burundi		319	2019		5
Somalia		236	2019

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/energy-consumption-by-country

I'm sure you can't read or deduct everything into or from this data alone; I have no idea why a citizen living in Singapore, exhibits an electricity/energy consumption that is almost six times larger than a citizen living here. Some unknown factors must be at play.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Except I'm not but I guess Sethro is right & people hear what they want over & over & over despite correction

Again so what are you saying?
Its not very helpful to say theres a problem, be negative about all solutions suggested, but offer none of your own.

Problems won't be solved without a redistribution of resources, both within and between countries.
At the moment we are steadily making the problems in 3rd world countries worse.
EU and Chinese fishing fleets are now overfishing off the coast of West Africa.
Cash crops for foreign markets harm agriculture for domestic consumption.
We (and other developed countries like Japan and increasingly China) are the problem, not the 3rd world. Until we recognise that we won't be able to help solve the 3rd worlds problems that we are causing.

 

[Gorbles]

If you had a loved one who weighs 400lb and the doctor told them it would help there biomarkers to lose weight and then were like "Yeah doc, how do you know? Can you tell me my perfect ideal weight otherwise you're full of crap" you'd think they were nuts, no? What we know is the "vitals" of earth are out of whack.

Someone's individual weight problems aren't something you can extrapolate to issues with overconsumption and the Earth. You like going back to the "person fat" example a lot, I get it, but it doesn't help as much as you think it does.

Very few people are going to disagree that stuff needs to be done. I don't think anyone here's going to say "the earth is doing fine" (except the nihilist types that don't care if we get wiped from the face of it, I guess). The problem is agreeing on what.

 

[Akka]

We (and other developed countries like Japan and increasingly China) are the problem, not the 3rd world. Until we recognise that we won't be able to help solve the 3rd worlds problems that we are causing.

Just a quick fact-checking.
Europe population in 1900 : 400 millions.
Europe population in 2020 : 750 millions.
World population in 1900 : about 1500 millions.
World population 2020 : about 8000 millions.

If the world had the demography of Europe, we would be at about 2,2 billions people and falling. The entire planet could have European standards of living in a sustainable manner.
Redistribution of wealth and waste are a problem ? Yes, ten times yes, they are ugly problems that should absolutely be fixed - they are actually problem WITHIN the wealthy countries too, not just BETWEEN countries, so it's first and foremost a problem of CLASSES, BTW
But don't pretend that population growth is not a problem too, again, and don't shift the responsability about it. The BS in this thread about "it's not a problem" is ridiculous. Sustainable population allowing for maximum well-being is the goal, not maximum population until we can't cram some more.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Just a quick fact-checking.
Europe population in 1900 : 400 millions.
Europe population in 2020 : 750 millions.
World population in 1900 : about 1500 millions.
World population 2020 : about 8000 millions.

If the world had the demography of Europe, we would be at about 2,2 billions people and falling. The entire planet could have European standards of living in a sustainable manner.
Redistribution of wealth and waste are a problem ? Yes, ten times yes, they are ugly problems that should absolutely be fixed - they are actually problem WITHIN the wealthy countries too, not just BETWEEN countries, so it's first and foremost a problem of CLASSES, BTW
But don't pretend that population growth is not a problem too, again, and don't shift the responsability about it. The BS in this thread about "it's not a problem" is ridiculous. Sustainable population allowing for maximum well-being is the goal, not maximum population until we can't cram some more.

I never said population growth isn't a potential problem (atm its a resource allocation problem but in time it could be numbers of people).
What I have pointed out is we already know the solution to population pressures, education and healthcare.

 

[Senethro]

See, bringing in dates vs. Population is wrong because not all nations industrialised in the same year. Never mind that the world not having the demography of Europe is partly due to European resource extraction in the relevant timeframe. (Among other causes, and other global actors)

If you frame the problem in this manner, the fascists are going to flank you.

 

[Arwon]

I have no idea why a citizen living in Singapore, exhibits an electricity/energy consumption that is almost six times larger than a citizen living here

That's primary energy which includes oil consumption at their very significant petroleum refineries which serve as a huge hub supplying Asia and the Pacific. Notice how 85% by fuel is oil.

 

[Akka]

I never said population growth isn't a potential problem (atm its a resource allocation problem but in time it could be numbers of people).

No, it's not just resource allocation, it's also raw numbers. The world population we have today means we simply don't have enough resources on the planet to have everyone able to be on the same level of comfort as wealthy countries.

What I have pointed out is we already know the solution to population pressures, education and healthcare.

I didn't disagree with that, and in fact I supported it previously. But that's not just what you have pointed, cf the quote I answered to.

 

[AmazonQueen]

No, it's not just resource allocation, it's also raw numbers. The world population we have today means we simply don't have enough resources on the planet to have everyone able to be on the same level of comfort as wealthy countries.

I didn't disagree with that, and in fact I supported it previously. But that's not just what you have pointed, cf the quote I answered to.

True, not everybody can consume as wastefully as the rich nations are currently doing, but thats unsustainable already.

 

[Akka]

True, not everybody can consume as wastefully as the rich nations are currently doing, but thats unsustainable already.

As pointed in my previous post, it would be with Europe's demography. It was the whole point and even spelled out.
Not that I support overconsumption and waste. I would still support and vote for better resource management, because waste by itself is a problem that should be eliminated. But it's only half of the problem, despite the attempts to pretend it's the only problem.

 

[AmazonQueen]

As pointed in my previous post, it would be with Europe's demography. It was the whole point and even spelled out.
Not that I support overconsumption and waste. I would still support and vote for better resource management, because waste by itself is a problem that should be eliminated. But it's only half of the problem, despite the attempts to pretend it's the only problem.

You're not going to get European demography (which has its own problems in terms of an ageing population and is reliant on immigration for workers) without providing healthcare and education to the 3rd world

 

[Sommerswerd]

This problem seems unsolvable. Human lifestyle has advanced to a point where our consumption is irreversibly unsustainable. Thinking about it... once we got to the point where we had to cut down trees faster than we could replant/regrow to maintain our society, we were effed... dependence on fossil fuels just dramatically accelerated the inevitable. We can't die fast enough to replace the resources we extract... and then we don't even bury our dead directly in the soil anymore anyway, so...

Maybe we can relieve some of the pressure on the Earth by finding other planets to settle... but who knows at this point.

 

[Gorbles]

The world population we have today means we simply don't have enough resources on the planet to have everyone able to be on the same level of comfort as wealthy countries.

What level of comfort, specifically? Because more and more we're seeing a gulf between the rich and the poor (here in the UK it's gotten particularly bad, for example). Assuming some general "Western" level of comfort that's never specified doesn't actually help when claiming we can't make everybody experience it.

Because we already can't, and we already don't. So assuming that, it's not really an argument against anything, because nobody is proposing we make everybody as well off as upper middle class British folk, or something.

 

[Akka]

You're not going to get European demography (which has its own problems in terms of an ageing population and is reliant on immigration for workers) without providing healthcare and education to the 3rd world

Going to repeat myself from other threads : "aging population" is NOT an avoidable problem, and relying on immigration to keep the pyramid on the growth part only means kicking the can down the road (and adding a whole lot of societal friction on top of that). Unless the population can grow up infinitely (it can't, Earth is not infinite), we WILL need to adapt to "aging population" sooner or later, and the later we face it, the harder and the less resources we'll have available. Short-sighted policies are precisely why we have an environmental bomb ready to blow up in our face, so let's not keep with them, okay ?

Also, I agree that education and healthcare are the best contraceptives, but how :
1) is it the responsabilities of other countries to provide it and not the home country ?
2) is it going to happen without raising "colonization" or "attempt to control" protests ?

 

[AmazonQueen]

Going to repeat myself from other threads : "aging population" is NOT an avoidable problem, and relying on immigration to keep the pyramid on the growth part only means kicking the can down the road (and adding a whole lot of societal friction on top of that). Unless the population can grow up infinitely (it can't, Earth is not infinite), we WILL need to adapt to "aging population" sooner or later, and the later we face it, the harder and the less resources we'll have available. Short-sighted policies are precisely why we have an environmental bomb ready to blow up in our face, so let's not keep with them, okay ?

Also, I agree that education and healthcare are the best contraceptives, but how :
1) is it the responsabilities of other countries to provide it and not the home country ?
2) is it going to happen without raising "colonization" or "attempt to control" protests ?

These are the countries we've looted for the last 500 years, whose corrupt governments we've maintained and whose corrupt elites we encourage to bank here, spend their stolen money here, buy property here and send their children to be educated here.
We continue to take more from the 3rd world in resources and profits than we provide in terms of aid.
It was the rich countries who made the world the way it is, its their responsibility to at least play a part in fixing it.

It probably will cause friction especially with the local elites, thats no excuse for our continued exploitation of the poorest regions of the world for our own benefit.

 

[EvaDK]

That's primary energy which includes oil consumption at their very significant petroleum refineries which serve as a huge hub supplying Asia and the Pacific. Notice how 85% by fuel is oil.

Yeah, it doesn't seem to distinguish between production/supply and consumption. That explains the high numbers for OPEC member states, as well as to why Norway is 3-4 times higher than its Nordic neighbors.

 

[Akka]

These are the countries we've looted for the last 500 years, whose corrupt governments we've maintained and whose corrupt elites we encourage to bank here, spend their stolen money here, buy property here and send their children to be educated here.

Ah yeah, the corrupt colonial powers of Switzerland, Korea, Finland, Austria, Slovenia or Iceland. I understand their conquest and plundering of countries in the third world for 500 years is the reason why they have a wealthy lifestyle and they should totally feel guilty and responsible of what happens there, take responsability and start paying up.