Torture

jafink

King
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Jan 15, 2005
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Here are two very interesting articles about torture going on under American autority, if not in the U.S. directly. It discusts me how this kind of stuff is done by the people who are "freeing" Iraq, and giving the peple more liberties. It is also sad how things like this get so little media attention while Tom Cruises wedding is talked about for weeks. This is probably one of the things that make me wish there was something I could to stop, but frankly I don't see how. It is absolutely terrible, and I'm not saying just torture done by Americans, I'm saying torture in general.

http://www.alternet.org/rights/45613/

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/20/o...8b67cbd0a&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
 
Here are two very interesting articles about torture going on under American autority, if not in the U.S. directly. It discusts me how this kind of stuff is done by the people who are "freeing" Iraq, and giving the peple more liberties. It is also sad how things like this get so little media attention while Tom Cruises wedding is talked about for weeks. This is probably one of the things that make me wish there was something I could to stop, but frankly I don't see how. It is absolutely terrible, and I'm not saying just torture done by Americans, I'm saying torture in general.

http://www.alternet.org/rights/45613/

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/20/o...8b67cbd0a&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

Actually, most Americans don't have a problem with torture because it's the Christian thing to do and this is a Christian nation. :(
 
Torture is the Christian thing to do? Maybe during the Inquisition.
 
Would you like to provide evidence that torture is "the Christian thing to do", I've got time. I'll wait on it.

Perhaps irony isn't your strong point. I think he's making a dig at the Christian right supporting torture in certain places like guantanomo. If they were really good Christians they would be appalled, but they are not IMO.

If you want to see real testament about the torture that is happening go to the amnesty international site. The sort of abuses of human rights perpetrated here are just as shocking, lots of interviews with ex detainees. If you lower yourself to the level of terrorists, how do we tell you apart? Or do you only win a war by sliding into the slime and claiming it's for the greater Good?

These are difficult questions, that people should ask themselves, but more importantly is it morally justified to do this? Is this sound, when it is happenning to American citizens, no trial, no habeous corpus, torture, how do you feel. Now put yourself in place of an Iraqi or an Iranian? What damage is this doing that you cannot see?

Settlers fled to America to set a up a system where never again would a person be subject to cruel and unusual punishment at the hands of another country or religion, so what happened there? Apparently your system of morality is geographical and political yes?
 
Perhaps irony isn't your strong point. I think he's making a dig at the Christian right supporting torture in certain places like guantanomo. If they were really good Christians they would be appalled, but they are not IMO.
Good grief. I'm sick of hearing about Guantanamo, and how terrible things are there....they're allowed religious texts, given three square meals a day, and all interrogations are now voluntary. And they're interrogated while sitting in recliners. They're treated better than most prisoners in state or federal prison in the US.

Find something actually worthwhile to whine about. Seriously, there's no torture going on at Guantanamo, and insisting that there actually is is simply silly.
 
Actually, most Americans don't have a problem with torture because it's the Christian thing to do and this is a Christian nation. :(

I dont think thats true. Most americans do not advocate torture.

The only time you will find people advocate torture is when its absolutely necessary which is rare if ever.
 
Just to put it out there, I am appauled by the alleged torture that goes on at guantanomo but im not going to get my knickers into a twist over it.
 
Perhaps irony isn't your strong point. I think he's making a dig at the Christian right supporting torture in certain places like guantanomo. If they were really good Christians they would be appalled, but they are not IMO.
Well ha ha ha. Let's give him a skit on Chappelle's Show, maybe we can book Saturday Night Live sometime.

Fact of the matter is most Americans don't even support torture so I hardly see how most Christians would be supporting it. Even then I don't see how that makes it the Christian thing to do unless the Eleventh Commandment was 'Thou Shalt peel thy neighbors skin off and boil him alive.'

So basically what he said was nothing but some poor attempt at taking a shot at religion. I'd believe it was only a joke but somethings that this guy says such as "The Abrahamic Religions are a cancer" make me think otherwise.
 
Good grief. I'm sick of hearing about Guantanamo, and how terrible things are there....they're allowed religious texts, given three square meals a day, and all interrogations are now voluntary. And they're interrogated while sitting in recliners. They're treated better than most prisoners in state or federal prison in the US.

Find something actually worthwhile to whine about. Seriously, there's no torture going on at Guantanamo, and insisting that there actually is is simply silly.

What makes you so sure that there isn't torture going on in Guantanamo? Did it tell you that on TV? Just because the government or the media deny something doesn't mean it isn't happening. I personally think that the American government believes they can do pretty much whatever they want if they think it's good for Americans. I'm not saying I don't like Americans, not at all. I'm half American myself, and love Americans. I mean honestly are you just saying theres no torture in Guantanamo because it's something you want to be true, or do you actually think there isn't any?

Also, even if there is no torture going on in Guantanamo, what about the stuff in the articles that happened in other countries? do you deny that as well?

Thirdly, I would not call America a Christian society at all. Although it may be the most common religion in the United States, I think many people who say they are Christina refer to their religious background, not to their actual beliefs. Being Christian doesn't mean you Grandparents were, and that you go to church on Christmas Eve and Easter, It means that you believe in, and practice what God commands us to do according to the Bible, and that you believe that Jesus was the son of God and that he died for the sins of humanity and came to life 3 days later.

Anyways let's try our best not to turn this into another religious debate thread ;)
 
Good grief. I'm sick of hearing about Guantanamo, and how terrible things are there....they're allowed religious texts, given three square meals a day, and all interrogations are now voluntary. And they're interrogated while sitting in recliners. They're treated better than most prisoners in state or federal prison in the US.

Find something actually worthwhile to whine about. Seriously, there's no torture going on at Guantanamo, and insisting that there actually is is simply silly.

Do me a favour then and go to amnesty internationals web site, and read the testimony of those who were held there? They show that torture for individuals is very prevalent.

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/guantanamobay-library-eng

You're sick I'm personally sick of hearing of the torture that is going on there. I'm sick of it.

USA: Fear of torture/ill-treatment/Health concern. Sami al-Laithi (m)

PUBLIC AI Index: AMR 51/141/2005
UA 231/05 Fear of torture/ill-treatment/Health
concern 7 September 2005

USA/EGYPT Sami al-Laithi (m), teacher

Egyptian national Sami al-Laithi is at imminent risk of being returned from
Guantánamo Bay to Egypt where it is feared he may be at grave risk of torture,
ill-treatment, unfair trial or other serious human rights violations.

Sami al-Laithi has been held in Guantánamo Bay without charge or trial for over
three and a half years. On 10 May, US authorities determined that he is not an
‘enemy combatant’ through the Combatant Status Review Tribunal (CSRT)
procedure. He remains held at Guantánamo until his transfer is complete.

Sami al-Laithi is confined to a wheelchair as a result of a spinal injury which
he says was caused when US officials at the Guantánamo Bay hospital stomped on
his back, fracturing two vertebrae. He has said "Once they stomped on my
back…An MP threw me on the floor, and they lifted me up and slammed me back
down". He has been told that sudden movement could sever his spinal cord and
render him paralyzed. He has apparently been denied an operation that could
save him from permanent paralysis. Sami al-Laithi has also said that his neck
is permanently damaged because it has been repeatedly forced towards his knees
by pushing on the back of his head. A prison spokesperson is reported to have
attributed his back injury to a degenerative disease.

According to reports, Sami al-Laithi has been sexually abused while in
Guantánamo and consistently threatened with return to Egypt. On one occasion a
visiting Egyptian delegation are reported to have told him that he would
"certainly come back to Egypt" where he was told he would be subjected to
military trial. He is currently held at Camp V, a prison block for about 80
detainees who are held for up to 24 hours a day in solitary confinement in a
concrete cell approximately four metres by two metres.

Sami al-Laithi is believed to have left Egypt in 1986 to stay with his sister
in Pakistan. He has never returned, fearing persecution for his criticism of
the Egyptian authorities. He is said to have fled from Pakistan to Afghanistan
after two Egyptian officials were sent to find him. In Afghanistan he taught
English and Arabic at Kabul University until the US-led invasion of Iraq when
he fled back to Pakistan. Shortly after this he is believed to have been
seized in Pakistan and subsequently sold to US forces. Soon after this he was
transferred to Guantánamo Bay.

On 21 July, Sami al-Laithi's lawyers applied for him to be given at least 30
days' notice of any transfer from Guantánamo and for him to be found a safe
country to go to. This application was turned down on 28 August, when the Judge
found that the lawyers had failed to offer direct evidence that he would be
tortured in Egypt. The Judge also cited US authorities’ declarations that it
opposes torture and would not send someone to a country where they would be
tortured.
BACKGROUND INFORMATION
There are currently approximately 505 detainees from about 35 countries held in
Guantánamo. Some have been held for over three-and-a-half years without charge
or trial. According to the Department of Defense 174 detainees have previously
been released and 68 transferred to other countries (29 to Pakistan, five to
Morocco, seven to France, seven to Russia, four to Saudi Arabia, two to Spain,
one to Sweden, one to Kuwait, one to Australia, nine to Great Britain and two
to Belgium). Some of these have since been released, including those
transferred to the UK, Russia, Sweden, Australia and Kuwait.

In Egypt suspected members of armed Islamist opposition groups and political
opponents, including those returned from abroad, are frequently tortured,
particularly at the State Security Intelligence (SSI) headquarters in Lazoghly
Square, Cairo, but also other SSI branches, at police stations and occasionally
prisons. The methods most commonly reported are electric shocks, beatings,
suspension by the wrists or ankles, burning with cigarettes, and various forms
of psychological torture, including death threats and threats of rape or sexual
abuse of the detainee or their female relatives. Despite hundreds of complaints
of torture reported by lawyers and local human rights groups to the Public
Prosecutors Office, no impartial investigations are known to have been
conducted.

Born in Nouakchott, Mauritania, Mohammed al-Amin is believed to have travelled to Saudi Arabia when he was a teenager to study the Qu’ran, leaving behind his mother, father and five sisters. He hoped to become a teacher. He later travelled to Pakistan where he was arrested following the attacks on the US mainland on 11 September 2001. He was subsequently transferred to US custody, and was transported to Afghanistan and then Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. In each of these places he alleges that he was subjected to torture or other cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment. He remains in Guantánamo Bay, having never been charged with a criminal offence, over four years since his arrest.

Arrest and treatment in Pakistan
Mohammed al-Amin was arrested in April 2002 in Peshawar, Pakistan when he was 17 or 18 years old. While in Pakistani custody, he told his lawyer, he was subjected to various forms of ill-treatment in order to force him to confess that he was a Saudi Arabian national. He spent two months in detention in Peshawar, where he states he was subjected to beatings, held for prolonged periods in solitary confinement and denied adequate food.

Transfer to US custody, and Bagram
"Eventually, I told them what they wanted to hear and the torture stopped"

In around June 2002, Mohammed al Amin was blindfolded, shackled and hooded and placed on a plane with several other detainees. He was taken to the US airbase at Bagram in Afghanistan. Mohammed al Amin was held in Bagram for two months, he told his lawyer that while there he "went through many tragedies". He alleges that:
- he was deprived of sleep;
- he was sexually abused;
- he was tied by his hands to the ceiling for days on end. He states that whenever he lost consciousness a guard would forcefully pull him up to wake him;
- US personnel told him that he would be transferred to Egypt to face further torture.

Mohammed al-Amin stated to his lawyers that after two months of this treatment, and in order to stop the abuse, he told his captors whatever they wanted to hear. "They wanted me to say I had come to join the Jihad", he stated in 2006, "Eventually I told them what they wanted to hear and the torture stopped".

Guantánamo – "even worse than Bagram"
Without being told what was happening to him, or where he was being taken, Mohammed al-Amin was again shackled, hooded and blindfolded and strapped down in a military airplane. He was disoriented, and felt dizzy and sick on the flight which lasted for several hours. Mohammed al-Amin was shocked when he was told that he was in the US Naval Base at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.

He states that the first year he was held in Guantánamo Bay was "terrible" and "worse than Bagram". He alleges that he was subjected to sleep deprivation, sexual humiliation, and exposure to loud music. As in Bagram, he eventually relented and told his interrogators what they wanted to hear.

Hunger Strike
"The strike started to prove a point – to request that the US government prove our presence here was justified or find us innocent"

Mohammed al-Amin, like most other Guantánamo detainees, has never been charged with any crime. His interrogations have stopped; he simply languishes in the US detention facility with no ability to challenge his incarceration. Mohammed al-Amin reportedly feels "hopeless" and told his lawyer that his faith in the US justice system is "almost nil". He told his lawyer that he longed for a chance to prove his innocence, or even to be charged and have access to any form of justice. "If there is really justice, within five minutes in a court, I can prove there is no case against me".

In protest at his continued indefinite detention and the lack of any charges against him, Mohammed al-Amin embarked on a hunger strike in August 2005. Up to 200 detainees have participated in the strike. Mohammed Al-Amin states that camp authorities began force feeding hunger strikers at the end of that month.

In January 2006, the US authorities introduced a regime to more forcefully deal with those who continued the strike. Mohammed al-Amin states that a new team of doctors arrived, armed with restraint chairs and feeding tubes, and a mandate to end the ongoing hunger strike.
When this new team arrived, Mohammed al-Amin said that he was taken out of his bed at the camp hospital and placed in solitary confinement in a cell in "Block Oscar". In this cell, painted black and without windows, the air conditioning was left on full, leading Mohammed al-Amin to describe it as a "freezer". He said that guards would throw water on him to exacerbate the freezing conditions, and would wake him up if he fell asleep. At mealtimes, he would be taken to be force fed. The manner in which he was force fed may amount to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, or torture. It is alleged that:
- He would be placed in a restraint chair by camp guards so that he was unable to move at all;
- A large tube would be forced down his nose. On one occasion it felt like it was forced against the bottom of his stomach, which caused him severe pain. The doctor then stated that they could not find the correct position and forcefully pulled the feeding tube from him. This entire procedure was repeated two or three times. He states that the tube would cause his nose to bleed;
- He was deliberately over fed until he vomited, and when he vomited the force feeding would start again;
- He was strapped in the restraint chair for periods of two to three hours at a time, which coupled with being overfed, led him to urinate and defecate on himself;

After the force feeding sessions, which would last much of the day, he would allegedly be dumped, covered in his own vomit, blood and faeces, back in his isolation cell. He persisted in his strike, but after 21 days of mistreatment in the chair and isolation, he could take no more and gave up.

In his own words, "they used physicians to commit crimes". He states that doctors would supervise the force feeding operations, watching while he was forced to vomit. On one occasion he says that a doctor asked him "are you going to quit the hunger strike or stay in this situation?"

Now, according to Mohammed al-Amin, if a detainee misses a meal, all "comfort items" – such as reading materials, clothes – are removed, leaving the detainee in his cell with a thin mattress and a blanket.
 
Sidhe, unfortunately the terrorists are actually trained to claim they were tortured if captured. Therefore, that very training renders any complaint they make pretty much suspect if not downright totally unbelievable.
 
Sidhe, unfortunately the terrorists are actually trained to claim they were tortured if captured. Therefore, that very training renders any complaint they make pretty much suspect if not downright totally unbelievable.

Or is it that Americans are trained to believe that terrorists are trained to claim that they were tortured?

Also how can you call these people terrorists when they have not been given a trial or and sort of public hearing. Most of them end up being released after a few years anyways. What about the claims from people who have been released as innocent? They are not terrorists, but they still say they were tortured.
 
Has anyone ever presented any documented proof that they were tortured? Besides the pansies who say they were forced to take naked pictures or listen to loud music. Just curious.
 
Good grief. I'm sick of hearing about Guantanamo, and how terrible things are there....they're allowed religious texts, given three square meals a day, and all interrogations are now voluntary. And they're interrogated while sitting in recliners. They're treated better than most prisoners in state or federal prison in the US.

Find something actually worthwhile to whine about. Seriously, there's no torture going on at Guantanamo, and insisting that there actually is is simply silly.

Source, please?
 
Has anyone ever presented any documented proof that they were tortured? Besides the pansies who say they were forced to take naked pictures or listen to loud music. Just curious.

Ah, so I guess being put into humiliating positions and listening to overly loud music for hours on end is what everybody would like to do. And those who don't like that kind of entertainment, provided FREE OF CHARGE by the US army - why, they're pansies! It all makes sense now.
 
Has anyone ever presented any documented proof that they were tortured? Besides the pansies who say they were forced to take naked pictures or listen to loud music. Just curious.

So let's say, purely hypothetically, that I was tortured in Guantanamo. I was eventually released after being held there for 3 years. While I was there I was tortured. Just how would I obtain documented proof that I was tortured? I mean seriously that is a rediculous thing to ask for. Obviously they aren't going to "document" that they tortured prisoners.
 
Sidhe, unfortunately the terrorists are actually trained to claim they were tortured if captured. Therefore, that very training renders any complaint they make pretty much suspect if not downright totally unbelievable.

This is only true of any terrorists that are there. A non-terrorist was never 'trained to lie', so a non-terrorist claiming to have been tortured doesn't get the same disregard for his statements.

So ... are there any non-terrorists who've claimed to have been tortured?
 
Has the american government given insight into these places where the alledged tutruring of induviduals belived to be hostile to american interests to civilian agencies?

For why would they deny it if they were not torturing induviduals held at such locations? Of course there is secrecy, but perhaps some good documentation would be in order?
 
This is only true of any terrorists that are there. A non-terrorist was never 'trained to lie', so a non-terrorist claiming to have been tortured doesn't get the same disregard for his statements.

So ... are there any non-terrorists who've claimed to have been tortured?

Most of the people who have been released and given statements to amnesty international were released because there was no evidence that they had any links with terrorism. So in fact pretty much all the testemonies of torture are from non-terrorsts released or otherwise because none of them have ever been charged with anything or had the right to habeus corpus even. Terrorists at guantanemo they have locked up and thrown away the key pretty much.
 
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