Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
I'd say flying a combat aircraft over a city while vociferously whining that it wasn't fair for Gadhafi to be doing so isn't exactly a great propaganda move.
U.N. Approves Airstrikes to Halt Attacks by Qaddafi Forces
- Thread starter Incodcito
- Start date
Well, they've got their intervention. France appears to have decided to win the war for the rebels.
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Unrelated to that: People seem to be trying to systematise what's going on, fit it into a pre-existing narrative. But when has any of this happened before? Spontaneous uprisings in the Middle East certainly haven't, and their transformation into essentially an alternative government engaged in civil war? Hasn't happened in the Arab world either. We're in new and uncharted waters here/
....
Unrelated to that: People seem to be trying to systematise what's going on, fit it into a pre-existing narrative. But when has any of this happened before? Spontaneous uprisings in the Middle East certainly haven't, and their transformation into essentially an alternative government engaged in civil war? Hasn't happened in the Arab world either. We're in new and uncharted waters here/
GoodSarmatian
Jokerfied Western Male
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What about Iran ?
Didn't end so well there, but this rebellion doesn't seem do have a strong islamic fundamentalist component and western support for the rebellion will at least prevent new strictly anti-western government.
Didn't end so well there, but this rebellion doesn't seem do have a strong islamic fundamentalist component and western support for the rebellion will at least prevent new strictly anti-western government.
There's certainly an Islamist element to this rebellion, but that's a lot like saying "there are conservatives and religious people involved" and doesn't really tell you anything at all. Islamists are a big chunk of the right-of-centre political spectrum of the Arab world and probably even a chunk of the left-of-centre.
Also, our support doesn't guarantee a pro-western government.
Of course ideally that wouldn't be the expectation. But then I am a dreamer.
Also, our support doesn't guarantee a pro-western government.
Of course ideally that wouldn't be the expectation. But then I am a dreamer.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
Now, now. Listen to Sarkozy, just about any other leader, and even so-called unbiased CNN. This is clearly goodness and light® triumphing over darkness and evil™, no matter what the majority of the population actually wants.
Holycannoli
Deity
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I've been saying this throughout the thread. I look at this as an internal civil war where neither side is in the wrong (much like the american civil war), and I suspect this intervention is due to pressure from unnamed arab regimes and not some humanitarian concern for the civilians. IMO it makes the UN look weak to intervene, the US included. It's shameful.
For the record, I was not happy with invading Iraq either the second time, but Saddam defied resolutions and interfered with and prevented inspections...all Gadhafi did was was retake areas taken by rebels.
Now what happens when we intervene here and not elsewhere? What happens if Bahrain winds up with an armed rebellion that starts losing?
I don't believe the UN's reasons for this for a second, the few vague reasons they've given anyway which so far are only "stop the shelling of his own civilians".
Eliminate Gaddafi and every one of his supporters, and bring in a new era of real democracy for Libya. Even if they elect someone that we don't agree with, they elected him darnit.
Kill Gaddafi and every one of his supporters. No mercy.
With our military power, nearly every one of Gaddafi's supporters will be exterminated.
It is not. It is purely an appeal to humanitarian reasons, saving innocents, and trying to make a better world.
Ethically and morally speaking, yes. Practically, no. We would like to be able to exterminate any authoritarian government that slaughters its people in order to stay in power - but it's just not practical. Yet. We need to increase our military power further.
It is wrong to open fire on peaceful protesters and order the bombing and killing of innocents just to stay in power. Anyone that does this deserves to be round up in a concentration camp and executed.
Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. I'll take it.
The closest historical analogue I can think of is the Revolutions of 1848 in Europe, and even then that comparison is fraught with many problems, though I think that the Revolutions of 2011 and 1848 will share one thing in common. The bad guys will mostly win.
I don't know what is expected out of no-fly zone. The rebels are definitely losing now and, unless they receive arms, and/or some new uprising will start on the back of Qadhdhafi's army, they won't be able to defeat The Leader of the Revolution completely. Yes, I do agree the involvement of international community will give enormous boost to the morale of the dissidents, but I'm not sure if it shall be enough.
Terxpahseyton
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Apparently a no-fly zone involves bombing tanks.
amadeus
Apply directly to the forehead
You think they want Gadhafi?
Verbose
Deity
That was my question as well.
It's the nuttiest dictature this side of North Korea, and before Ghaddafi had time to find his feet and start killing people to stay on top of the situation, his power base was crumbling with the speed of snow in the Sahara. The fact that he rallied, and has enough well armed goons on his side (he has cultivated the clan system all these days - divide and conquer) and certainly has a knack for terror (not just us in the west; one reason an Islamist component in the uprising is kind of toned down is that Colonel G killed them by the thousands during the 1990's) hardly equates the people of Libya loving him, never mind how many times he goes on record with that line.
Has somehow the bizarre things coming out of his mouth and his ridiculous fashion sense somehow made people think he's just a clown, and not too bad?
amadeus
Apply directly to the forehead
It seems like the only people left fighting for him are native Libyans on the military's dole or hired guns from other African countries.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
I think a great number of them apparently do.
I also think we have no idea what the people of Libya actually want.
Verbose
Deity
I doubt the French are very much concerned about the actual Libyan planes. It's the AA on the ground they need to worry about.
Verbose
Deity
Love, money or fear?
But OK, obvioulsy there are no polling institutes in Libya, just like there were non in Egypt. That's because Ghaddqafi is telling you they all lurv him, so you should be satisfied.
Except for a brief moment we got a glimpse of Libyans suddenly not quite afriad of the old Geezer, and it took weeks before he regained his composure and unleashed his loving bombs and shells on what was then the larger parts of the country. The demonstrations in Tripolis was pretty much the only ones that failed to take the place over, and that was where his security apparatus was always the strongest.
Just go back a couple of weeks and look at what he controlled then, and what now. And the bit he now controls are not due to people suddenly coming to their senses and realising their love for him...
That's above the No Fly Zone - Gaddafi violated the UN's resolution (which he was never expected to keep anyway) giving the UN casus belli against him - in other words, it's all but France declaring war on Libya. Vive la France!
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
Who knows? And who knows how many Libyans want a modern secular democratic form of government instead of a backward theocracy in its place?
So we should just believe all the clearly one-sided propaganda of innocent protestors being slaughtered by the evil Gadhafi? The opposition clearly has some rather sophisticated weapons themselves, including military jets.
This appears to be a civil war no different than any other civil war.
Verbose
Deity
The French are also going to dispatch the Charles de Gaulle "porte avion" from Toulon towards Libya. I think we can assume that means a beefed up "groupe aeronaval" of subs and surface ships in support.
