UHVs, Abilities, UU, and UB for New Civs

[mccp77]

Modern Italy

1860 AD

UHV 1: "Le magnifiche sorti e progressive (Magnificent destinies)"*: be the first to discover Radio, Psychology and Fission
Each one of these technologies is often accredited to great Italian scientists or thinker. Guglielmo Marconi is often credited as the inventor of the radio because of his work on long-distance radio transmission; in 1909 he won the Nobel Prize in Physics. Enrico Fermi was awarded the 1938 Nobel Prize in Physics, he was the creator of the first nuclear reactor in 1942. I'd insert Psychology too because its discovery unlocks Totalitarianism, whose first definition was made in 1923 by Italian politician Giovanni Amendola, then by Italian philosopher and politician Giovanni Gentile, in describing Italian Fascism system.
*A quote from Giacomo Leopardi's poem "La Ginestra", it has become an idiomatic expression to modernist belief in scientific and technical development between 19th and 20th century.

UHV 2: "La grande proletaria s'è mossa (The big proletariat has moved on)"**: Control 65% of Mediterranean Sea and Ethiopia by 1940
It represents Italian colonialism and WWII conquests around the Mediterranean Sea.
**The title of poet Giovanni Pascoli's speech during Italian military campaign in Libya in 1911.

Alternative UHV2: "A place in the sun": Have X oil resources by 1960
This is another idiomatic expression to indicate the quest for a territory to gain its goods. It was likely referred to colonial empires, but it was used also to defined the peaceful managing strategy of Enrico Mattei. He was the founder of the biggest Italian statal oil company, the ENI (previously Italian Petroleum Agency, born under the fascist regime). He struggled against the oligopoly of the "Seven Sisters" in order to grant an energy independence to Italy. He died in a mysterious plane crash in 1962.
This UHV could be reached by different strategies:
- the military one, with Italy going to control oil resources in North Africa, so it could represent Italian domination in Libya, maybe Balkans, so it could represent Italian historical goals and/or domination in Istria, Dalmatia, Albania etc.;
- the diplomatic one, as made by Mattei, by signing better agreements with the poorest countries of the Middle East, such as Algeria, Iran, Egypt etc.

UHV 3: "Il Sorpasso (The Overtaken)": Have the 5th GDP in the world in 1990
It represents Italian economic boom's peak.

UU: Bersagliere (replaces Infantry, double movement points)
To enhance military conquest in such a short time. Btw, it should be replaced UU for medieval/renaissance Italy (I remember "Condottiero" (replaces Knight) from 2nd UU modmod).

For UB and UP I have several ideas.
Something to represent the wide economic gap between Northern Italy and the Southern one created only after Italian Unification and that still survives could involve the ability to work Alps tiles. For example, Factory or Industrial Park can allow to work alpine tiles with +1 hammer/food/gold to boost, in terms of production and population, northern cities. If UP, it should be named "Industrial Triangle", that specifically refers to high-productive area between Turin-Milan-Genoa; if UB, it should be related to Hydroelectric Plants (it could be named Alpine Hydroelectric Plant) and it would represent the main source of energy in Italy from early industrial ages to the '70s.
Another one could interest luxury resources, especially wine. Italy is the 1st world producer of wine and its food and luxury products are considered top-fashioned. A UP could give extra income for every resource traded: it could be simply named "Italian Style" (sorry if I'm falling in chauvinism, it's not my intention: if you want to, you can call it "Pizza Power"). Again, if it would be more related to wine, it could double food and commerce to orchard, so it could maybe encourage military invasion of other wine tiles around Mediterranean Sea, but I don't like very much this bizarre option.


Core Areas/Areas of Expansion/etc.
The same of medieval Italy.

Why is it that France, Germany, Russia, etc. only get 1 set of UHVs but Italy gets 2?

 

[Just an idea]

Why is it that France, Germany, Russia, etc. only get 1 set of UHVs but Italy gets 2?

Well, Germany has already got 2, HRE and Prussia, and I'm pretty sure there has been suggestion about separating Russia into Kievan Rus and Muscovy.

 

[Steb]

I think UHV 1 can just be the Hanging Gardens and the Great Library -- no need for a new Lib wonder.

I think UHV3 should relate to technology. Assyria was the most advanced civilization of its time. Maybe have the most techs in 650BC? that sounds good. They'll have to race China.

Also, their UP should be 1 free tech per conquered city. The Power of Forced Deportation. When they conquered territory they'd take the most useful people and move them to Nineveh. The library there was a collection of knowledge from conquered people.

The Library of Ashurbanipal is already included in Leoreth's new wonders list. It has an effect similar to what you suggest as a UP, which is why I suggested something else. Of course, if the Library doesn't end up in the mod (it could totally be removed) then this is a good UP. Extra GPP points (or some other bonus) in the capital when you conquer a city could be an alternative that works well with the deportation theme.

I avoided a technology-related UHV because Babylon already has one. In general I think that two Mesopotamian civilizations should have a different focus, even if they did a lot of the same stuff (build wonders, establish an empire, discover new things, etc.).

 

[mccp77]

Burma (Bamar Peoples)
Spawn 850AD at Pagan (Bagan)

UHV1: Land of Ten Thousand Temples -- Build 8 temples and 8 monasteries by 1200AD (may need to be edited for the new buildings and tech tree)
UHV2: Kill <<very high number here>> Mongol, Chinese, (and Machu if they get included) units without losing a city by 1800AD.
UHV3: Bayinnaung's Conquests -- Control 5 SE Asian cities in 1580AD

Ability: Power of the Ahmudan System -- Burma may conscript units without any technological or ideological prerequisites.

UU: Cassay Horseman
UB: <<insert here>>

UHV2 will need to be changed if Die Viet is also included in order to get some variety. It should probably be changed to something trade related.

 

[mccp77]

The Library of Ashurbanipal is already included in Leoreth's new wonders list. It has an effect similar to what you suggest as a UP, which is why I suggested something else. Of course, if the Library doesn't end up in the mod (it could totally be removed) then this is a good UP. Extra GPP points (or some other bonus) in the capital when you conquer a city could be an alternative that works well with the deportation theme.

I avoided a technology-related UHV because Babylon already has one. In general I think that two Mesopotamian civilizations should have a different focus, even if they did a lot of the same stuff (build wonders, establish an empire, discover new things, etc.).

Fair enough. I still thing UHV3 should be changed. Maybe make it build ________ units by 650AD?

 

[1SDANi]

Taruma was a Sunda kingdom. Sundanese people are not Javanese. Those two ethnic groups have been rivals for over a millennia. Spawn date needs to be in eastern java with the first Javanese kingdom in 732AD. That also gives the Malays some time to get situated before the Javanese begin to encroach on them to build their own thessalocracy. Taruma can spawn as an independent in 400.

Javanese
UP: the Power of Irrigation -- Farms provide double food. (Throw a couple rices on Java)

I don't expect them to stay on Java. My expectation is that they will slowly displace the Malays as the dominant force in the archipelago after the Malays settle Malaysia, Borneo, and Sumatra earlier, and the Javanese finish building Borobodur. More cities on Java are better, but they won't stay on that one island.

UHV 1: Javanese Architecture -- Build Borobodur and 4 Kandis.
UHV 2: Majapahit Empire -- Conquer or vassalize the whole of modern Indonesia by 1390.
UHV 3: Mollucan Spice Trade -- Make <<insert amount here>> gold by 1550 through the Spice trade.

I was thinking about priorities, and I think the Mollucas 100% monopoly on spice production was noteworthy, and conquering the whole of Indonesia was important. I like the population UHV, but it might conflict too much w the need to produce soldiers. Therefore, I though the UP could just increase population to make the first and second goals easier.

UU: Kris Swordsman(?) -- Not sure if the ceremonial blades were actually used. Would like an amphibious unit. I will research more.
UB: Kandi -- increases happiness from building it will replace (helps w large pops)

I'll finish up editing tomorrow -- need some sleep.

Malays
UP: The Power of the Straits

Spawn Date: 500 AD
UHV1: Settle Sumatra, Borneo, Madagascar, and the Malay peninsula by 1000AD
UHV2: Collect <<insert amount here>> gold by 1300AD
UHV3: Foreign Economic Relations -- Have trade agreements with ______________ other nations by 1100AD.

UU: Double Outrigger
UB: Floating House

And that's what using Wikipedia as a source gets me.

 

[mccp77]

And that's what using Wikipedia as a source gets me.

LoL. Sorry, I didn't meant to tear into you. Sorry, if it came across that way. I'm always open to suggestions on my thoughts as well.

One thing I'd like to do is learn more about the origins of the Malays. Hopefully, we can create a viable reason to push their spawn date to earlier, so that the Javanese don't blitz them.

 

[1SDANi]

LoL. Sorry, I didn't meant to tear into you. Sorry, if it came across that way. I'm always open to suggestions on my thoughts as well.

One thing I'd like to do is learn more about the origins of the Malays. Hopefully, we can create a viable reason to push their spawn date to earlier, so that the Javanese don't blitz them.

You didn't tear into anything, don't worry. When I went to write up that Java thing I knew I'd get things wrong, and had already figured that since I was using info on Wikipedia's Island of Java instead of any one Nation I'd certainly get things wrong.

How do you suppose we could refrect the rivalry between Sundanese and Javanese in game, if it should at all? I'm not exactly sure how the game handles things like that TBH, but from how it soulds it makes me think it had a sizable impact of Java's history, and if so it may warrant being depicted in-game.

 

[mccp77]

Manchu (Mongol respawn)
Spawn Date: 1616
Leaders: Nurhaci, Kangxi

UHV1: All Under Heaven -- Control China, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria, and Taiwan by 1683AD and Conquer/Vassalize Korea, Outer Mongolia, Tibet, Vietnam, Thailand, Burma, and Xinjiang/Eastern Turkmenistan by 1760AD
UHV2: The Malthusian Limit -- Have 30% (may need to be decreased) of the world's population in China and Manchuria by 1850AD.
UHV3: Qing Patronage -- Settle xxx great artists in your cities by 1800AD

Ability: The Power of the Green Standard Army -- There is a 50% chance that defeated units defect to you if your opponent is unstable.

Core: Manchuria

UU: Eight Banners Cavalry
UB: Shanxi Bank (Piaohao) -- Replaces Bank, decreases city maintenance costs by 25%

If anybody can find a good replacement for the piaohao please let me know. There are very few qing or manchu buildings which were exclusively qing or manchu. the manchus specialized in cultural appropriation rather than cultural innovation.

They should also be a Mongol respawn as many of the Eight Banners were Mongol. It's doubtful that without Inner Mongolia and Mongolian horsemen they would have been as formidable as they were.

 

[mccp77]

Australia (I don't like the current Australia civ at all)
Spawn Date: 1900AD
Leader: Robert Menzies
Flip zone: Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania, Port Moresby. (Not historically accurate, but it avoids an ahistorical British-Australian or Dutch-Australian war.)

UHV1: Settle and/or Control the whole of Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania, and Port Moresby by 1930, and ensure all of Indonesia is controlled by a SE Asian power or independents in 1960AD.
UHV2: Have the highest GDP per capita in the world in 2015AD.
UHV3: Gain 5000 gold through resource exports by 2015AD.

UU: Bushman -- replaces settler -- is 50% cheaper to produce, has +1 movement, and incurs no penalties from moving across desert
UB: Immigration Office -- Replaces the customs house -- allows immigration to a city in which it is built. (The only civ to receive immigration outside of the Americas must work harder to attract it.) Not sure if this can be coded, but it would be ideal.

Ability: Power of the Mining Industry -- each resource mined is doubled. (Example -- I build a mine on a coal resource, I receive 2 coals.)

South Africa (I don't like the current Boers civ at all)
Spawn Date: 1910AD
Leader: Jan Smuts / Nelson Mandela
Flip Zone: South Africa

UHV1: Regional Hegemony -- Allow no European colonies or vassals in Southern Africa or the Congo in 1965AD.
UHV2: Mineral Wealth -- Control xxx mineral resources in 1940AD.
UHV3: Rail Terminus -- Have every city in Southern Africa and the Congo connected to your capital by rail in 1980AD.

UU: Eland Mk7 -- +1 movement, no terrain movement penalties.
UB: Cape Dutch Farm House -- Replaces Granary -- provides extra food

UB and UU were difficult. Would appreciate any input here. Would like the UU to have existed before 1965, so that it can help them w UHV1. For UHV2 the date is also arbitrary. I'd appreciate any input on that as well.

 

[mccp77]

You didn't tear into anything, don't worry. When I went to write up that Java thing I knew I'd get things wrong, and had already figured that since I was using info on Wikipedia's Island of Java instead of any one Nation I'd certainly get things wrong.

How do you suppose we could refrect the rivalry between Sundanese and Javanese in game, if it should at all? I'm not exactly sure how the game handles things like that TBH, but from how it soulds it makes me think it had a sizable impact of Java's history, and if so it may warrant being depicted in-game.

I don't know if we can. I do think an independent Sundanese city should spawn. But beyond that I don't have much. What are your thoughts?

 

[mccp77]

I'm just going to keep working down the list of civs. For the record, I don't expect these to all get included, I'm just outlining the concepts so that people can better evaluate the significance of their inclusion or edit my understanding of what they should be.

 

[1SDANi]

I don't know if we can. I do think an independent Sundanese city should spawn. But beyond that I don't have much. What are your thoughts?

No idea.

 

[soul-breathing]

Manchu (Mongol respawn)
Spawn Date: 1616
Leaders: Nurhaci, Kangxi

UHV1: All Under Heaven -- Control China, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria, and Taiwan by 1683AD and Conquer/Vassalize Korea, Outer Mongolia, Tibet, Vietnam, Thailand, Burma, and Xinjiang/Eastern Turkmenistan by 1760AD
UHV2: The Malthusian Limit -- Have 30% (may need to be decreased) of the world's population in China and Manchuria by 1850AD.
UHV3: Qing Patronage -- Settle xxx great artists in your cities by 1800AD

Ability: The Power of the Green Standard Army -- There is a 50% chance that defeated units defect to you if your opponent is unstable.

Core: Manchuria

UU: Eight Banners Cavalry
UB: Shanxi Bank (Piaohao) -- Replaces Bank, decreases city maintenance costs by 25%

If anybody can find a good replacement for the piaohao please let me know. There are very few qing or manchu buildings which were exclusively qing or manchu. the manchus specialized in cultural appropriation rather than cultural innovation.

They should also be a Mongol respawn as many of the Eight Banners were Mongol. It's doubtful that without Inner Mongolia and Mongolian horsemen they would have been as formidable as they were.

Generally speaking this is fit to my imagine about Qing. Some different points here.

UHV1 is good. But UHV2 is a little coincide with UHV1, my suggestion is "make food, commerce and production rank 1st in 1850ad". Your UHV2 is also good.

For UHV3, historically speaking Qing Dynasty is not famous with culture. Since there's a westernization movement in late 19th century, my UHV3 is "be the first to complete all industrial and early global techs, at the same time have a world's strongest navy".

UP is also great. As for the core area, I suggest Manchuria at beginning, then enlarged to north of Yellow River after make Beijing capital. Eight Banner could be cuirassier that unlocked by firearms. I think Piaohao should not decrease maintenance, in fact Qing was out at elbows in the late, maybe stores 15% of food after growth is a good effect, to perform the swift-growth population in Qing Dynasty.

Also I feel it not so suitable to make Qing as Mongol respawn, because they're totally 2 different nations. But since there is Colombia as Maya respawn... Nevermind.

At last, I and some Chinese players had add Manchu into DoC in 1.13 version. Here is link below, can download it for a reference.

 

[Leoreth]

Using respawns for new civs has always been a crutch. There will be no need to do something like that when we are at the point where new civs can be added.

 

[Novicenoble]

Manchu shall not be the respawn of Mongols, as they both need to be presented on the map at same era considering modern history of east Asia.

 

[mccp77]

Generally speaking this is fit to my imagine about Qing. Some different points here.

UHV1 is good. But UHV2 is a little coincide with UHV1, my suggestion is "make food, commerce and production rank 1st in 1850ad". Your UHV2 is also good.

For UHV3, historically speaking Qing Dynasty is not famous with culture. Since there's a westernization movement in late 19th century, my UHV3 is "be the first to complete all industrial and early global techs, at the same time have a world's strongest navy".

UP is also great. As for the core area, I suggest Manchuria at beginning, then enlarged to north of Yellow River after make Beijing capital. Eight Banner could be cuirassier that unlocked by firearms. I think Piaohao should not decrease maintenance, in fact Qing was out at elbows in the late, maybe stores 15% of food after growth is a good effect, to perform the swift-growth population in Qing Dynasty.

Also I feel it not so suitable to make Qing as Mongol respawn, because they're totally 2 different nations. But since there is Colombia as Maya respawn... Nevermind.

At last, I and some Chinese players had add Manchu into DoC in 1.13 version. Here is link below, can download it for a reference.

Mongol respawn- many of the 8 banners were ethnic mongols. I don't think the Manchu could have consolidated without a fractured Mongolia. I don't think Manchu should spawn if the Mongols still exist.

UHV2
by the 1850s China was already losing its edge. The U.K. + India had a larger GDP in PPP terms (I'm using the Maddison GDP set), and China certainly wasn't the industrial powerhouse that Britain was. Would you rather that we pushed this date further back into the 18th century or kept the UHV as is?

UHV3 My goal here is to keep all UHV goals to the mid-19th century or earlier. I want these not to make the Qing be anti-European. That way it's not more difficult to simulate European imperialism. I also don't want any tech UHVs bc by the 19th century I expect Qing to be very backward. My understanding was that the 18th century Qing was a literary golden age? Do you have any alternative UHV suggestions that would be pre-1842?

Piaohao - they had nothing to do with food production in real life. I don't think we should stretch buildings historical usefulness so far. However, I would like to have it help w population growth. Do you have any ideas on this? I'm open to any and all suggestions here. Was there a uniquely Manchu building that we could use instead?

In general what I'm going for here is to have the Manchu be quite primative and crush the advanced Ming. That will simulate the technological backwardness of China under the Qing which emerged in the 17th century, got worse in the 18th, and was a glaring tech gap by the 19th. Then after they collapse in the late 19th or early 20th century modern China can come back under Mao as an up-to-date modern state.

 

[Novicenoble]

Dzungar was independent until the early stage of the Qing dynasty, threatening chinese northern border until they completely conquered later. After in 20th century, Russia stretched their influence over Mongolia and Japan extended into Manchuria so they shall be separated.

We can simply make Manchu as conditional spawn civ so it cannot be spawned when Mongol people control the mainland china.

 

[1SDANi]

Up-to-date modern state.

 

[rmontaruli]

Modern Italy

1860 AD

I'd like a 1700 start with Duchy of Savoy in Turin spot, with an indipendent Cagliari that flips to get Kingdom of Sardinia.
A couple of transport, and a Great General (Giuseppe Garibaldi).
Venice will flip too.

1 UHV is Build Palace in Rome by 1860

2 UHV, 65% of Mediterranean Sea is too much. Italy never got such expansion, more correct is to control Libia in 1912 and Italian eastern Africa (ethiopia and somalia) in 1940