Uma Thurman re the Weinstein issue & something to come

[inthesomeday]

Yup, discriminating between inappropriate groping and attempted rape of a minor and multiple assaults and transgressions against other minors is super serial bias.

I must have missed it when I said that

 

[Zkribbler]

Wait a sec, Franken crossed the line or he didn't?

Yes it does. That's why he apologized. That's why he's called for an ethics investigation..

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I must have missed it when I said that

No you just write in vague terms about unnamed liberals showing bias. In the context of this conversation that can plausibly (and possibly only) be interpreted as meaning liberal posters are giving Franken some sort of pass because he's a democrat.

You can at just name some names and drop some quotes, that would sort this out in a hurry.

 

[inthesomeday]

No you just write in vague terms about unnamed liberals showing bias.

Conservatives, too, although y'all are mostly the same, I agree.

In the context of this conversation that can plausibly (and possibly only) be interpreted as meaning liberal posters are giving Franken some sort of pass because he's a democrat.

That's a weird conclusion, because I didn't include "posters" or "forum" in my comment at all, although I do think y'all are giving him an unacceptable pass here. Every single politician (or otherwise powerful person) who does something bad, especially in regards to abuse of power, especially in regards to sexual harassment, should immediately be ousted from office or worse. In reality, the positions of government than enable this behavior ought to be abolished altogether as (clearly) doing more harm than they help.

Of course, that goes against the liberal interests of protecting "their guys"; the corporate interests and other elites that keep them in power. The response to Franken's behavior coming out is a clear example of this, quite the same as the conservative interest in "their guys" has been betrayed by the response to Moore. Berserker said it well, that the behaviors are definitely very different and very varying in degrees of destructiveness, but that both men should be immediately ousted from office.

Now, again, I'm not specifically talking about people on the forums, but liberals in general that I know were all for this swift response during the early period of very bad allegations against a wide variety of powerful elites, ranging from liberal to conservative to fascist. They were willing to agree that people's careers and relationships that put them in power should end immediately, and that they should be removed from any ability to impose themselves on others. With Franken, though, many of them came to realize that the long-ignored history of Democratic Party power abuse might be exposed, and they began to sweat and hypocritically changed their tunes.

 

[Kyriakos]

Yes it does. That's why he apologized. That's why he's called for an ethics investigation..

You call for an investigation when you mean that you expect to be exonerated. This is hardly in tautology with accepting what you did as really bad.

Are you saying pedophilia is the same as hitting on a grown woman? I would say Franken was crude and if I lived in Wisconsin I would certainly look for someone else to vote for but saying that is the same as pedophilia boggles the mind. One can consent and the other legally cannot.

People in their sleep cannot consent, and being paid to do a sketch where you kiss someone is rather similar to Weinsteinian special relativity of producing and getting favours in return - although possibly more amateurish.

Reminds me of a documentary on the Benny Hill show -- which was far more obvious, though

 

[Berzerker]

Leftist here. Liberals definitely showing bias with the Franken situation here, just as conservatives showing bias with the Moore situation.

leaving the rest of us sick of the bias

Are you saying pedophilia is the same as hitting on a grown woman? I would say Franken was crude and if I lived in Wisconsin I would certainly look for someone else to vote for but saying that is the same as pedophilia boggles the mind. One can consent and the other legally cannot.

you must have missed this in the quote you're addressing:

"His argument? They're not the same. No, they're not"

and this more recently:

"Neither should be in the Senate, Moore's worse behavior only means he should be sitting in a cage.

Btw, the other one didn't consent to having Al stick his tongue in her mouth or being the target of mock groping while asleep

and pedophilia is an attraction to pre-pubescent children, your definition would label a bunch of people pedophiles

Yes it does. That's why he apologized. That's why he's called for an ethics investigation..

He called for an ethics investigation because he behaved unethically or because he isn't sure? Franken is full of it.

 

[Kyriakos]

Ephebophilia is a subset of paedophilia, though. I mean even the terms themselves would make it so, given pais= child. Both ephebic and pre-ephebic child are juxtaposed to (legal) adulthood, thus technically the term is largely tied to local (country, or state) allowed age for consent.

 

[Oerdin]

leaving the rest of us sick of the bias



you must have missed this in the quote you're addressing:

"His argument? They're not the same. No, they're not"

and this more recently:

"Neither should be in the Senate, Moore's worse behavior only means he should be sitting in a cage.

Btw, the other one didn't consent to having Al stick his tongue in her mouth or being the target of mock groping while asleep

and pedophilia is an attraction to pre-pubescent children, your definition would label a bunch of people pedophiles



He called for an ethics investigation because he behaved unethically or because he isn't sure? Franken is full of it.

14 is below the age of consent so, od course, Moore is worse. Far worse. He is a pedophile.

 

[Ryika]

14 is below the age of consent so, od course, Moore is worse. Far worse. He is a pedophile.

But that's because you Americans are uptight and backwards. Age of consent should obviously be 14, not 18.

 

[Berzerker]

14 is below the age of consent so, od course, Moore is worse. Far worse.

I know, I said what he did was worse...twice.

Ephebophilia is a subset of paedophilia, though. I mean even the terms themselves would make it so, given pais= child. Both ephebic and pre-ephebic child are juxtaposed to (legal) adulthood, thus technically the term is largely tied to local (country, or state) allowed age for consent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

Pedophilia or paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children.[1][2] Although girls typically begin the process of puberty at age 10 or 11, and boys at age 11 or 12,[3] criteria for pedophilia extend the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13.

Moore didn't go for pre-pubescent children... I wont argue the other term doesn't apply to him, he clearly did like older teens. But claiming the latter is a subset of the former isn't logical, we're evolutionarily designed to start mating after puberty.

But that's because you Americans are uptight and backwards. Age of consent should obviously be 14, not 18.

It ranges from 16-18 for the USA and Canada with most of the population under 18

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America

edit: two more women have accused Franken... Oh boy

 

[Ryika]

It ranges from 16-18 for the USA and Canada with most of the population under 18

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America

This may be why America is so crazy, and why Americans have such a tendency towards the extreme. Because how are young people supposed to grow up and become rational beings if older men and women aren't able to show them harmonic relationships when they're 14?

I think we're onto something here.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Wait a sec, Franken crossed the line or he didn't?

Franken crossed one line (or maybe two?), but there are several lines here.

Ephebophilia is a subset of paedophilia, though. I mean even the terms themselves would make it so, given pais= child. Both ephebic and pre-ephebic child are juxtaposed to (legal) adulthood, thus technically the term is largely tied to local (country, or state) allowed age for consent.

Huh....


...still unacceptable.

 

[Ryika]

Mid-to-late adolescents usually have physical characteristics near (or, in some cases, identical) to that of fully-grown adults; psychiatrist and sexologist Fred Berlin states that most men can find persons in this age group sexually attractive, but that "of course, that doesn't mean they're going to act on it. Some men who become involved with teenagers may not have a particular disorder. Opportunity and other factors may have contributed to their behaving in the way they do".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia

So basically, Kyriakos thinks most men are pedophiles.

Joking aside though, I think for most people the word Pedophile just means "A person who is interested in people younger than I'm comfortable with". Even here where the Age of Consent is technically 14 some limitations any person above 20 or so who tries to get it on with a 14yo will undoubtedly be called a pedophile by many people in the general public. In either case, the important thing is what he did, not to whom he did it - that he did it to people that young just made it worse.

/edit: Ohlol, jailbait has its own wikipedia article. Not a very comprehensive one though.

 

[inthesomeday]

Valessa back at it again with the extremist relativism. You're right, it does mean "younger than I'm comfortable with", but at the point where people are gonna want to talk about this when we're trying to drive pedophiles out of office the base values are too inconsistent for consensus and the contentious group's discourse is no longer welcome.

 

[Berzerker]

Franken crossed one line (or maybe two?), but there are several lines here.

only 1 line matters to be a senator, and both Moore and Franken crossed it

 

[r16]

so ı see Charlie Rose guy also gets it , too . Turkish satellite carries very few non-subscrition foreign language services and stuff and his debate programme would be aired in an economy channel , like a week late . By his looks , ı can hardly believe he didn't have enough in the carefree 60s to 80s but anyhow . Also hear up to 20 people have been outed in the media . Taking Rose as a critic of New America , is there a breakdown of how many of those 20 can be gauged as for and against ?

 

[Kyriakos]

Franken crossed one line (or maybe two?), but there are several lines here.




Huh....


...still unacceptable.

That isn't a 'huh' though; i mean in context of the gist of what i said: 'pais' being the root of the term, and pais being not contested as meaning any non-adult, in ancient-greek. Examples are numerous (some here would also have read the Meno dialogue, where the servant is called 'pais' as well, like some guests of small - ie late teen- age are too). So the division in the psychiatric terminology is not based on the actual terms themselves not being the set and the sub-set, but based on need to have different categories while still wanting to use the same original terms. The first two paragraphs of your quoted article follow.

Spoiler :

"
Ephebophilia is the primary sexual interest in mid-to-late adolescents, generally ages 15 to 19.[1] The term was originally used in the late 19th to mid 20th century.[1] It is one of a number of sexual preferences across age groups subsumed under the technical term chronophilia. Ephebophilia strictly denotes the preference for mid-to-late adolescent sexual partners, not the mere presence of some level of sexual attraction.

In research environments, specific terms are used for chronophilias: for instance, ephebophilia to refer to the sexual preference for mid-to-late adolescents,[1] hebephilia to refer to the sexual preference for earlier pubescent individuals, and pedophilia to refer to the primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children.[1][2] However, the term pedophilia is commonly used by the general public to refer to any sexual interest in minors below the legal age of consent, regardless of their level of physical or mental development.[3]
"

Btw, i do agree that sexual attraction to prepubescent people seems more repugnant. The point of discussion wasn't on that.

 

[Ryika]

Valessa back at it again with the extremist relativism. You're right, it does mean "younger than I'm comfortable with", but at the point where people are gonna want to talk about this when we're trying to drive pedophiles out of office the base values are too inconsistent for consensus and the contentious group's discourse is no longer welcome.

I'm not sure what you think we disagree on. The "younger than comfortable"-part was to show the distinction between how the words are used differently in, for example, psychology and the general public. The part of the discussion to which I made my response was about whether a person is or is not a pedophile if they're into, for example, 16yo's with bodies that have fully formed, adult features. In "proper" use, the person clearly isn't, but in everyday use the meaning of the word is different, so pointing out that it's not the "right" term when the person is clearly using a different framework is rather meaningless, as there's nothing that makes the version of the word as used in psychology "correct" and the use by the public "incorrect", it's just that the term as used by the public would be incorrect if used in the context of psychology.

But on the topic in general, obviously the population of any Nation has to decide who to keep and not keep in office based on their own moral values (which isn't even an issue here, as he didn't just have a harmonic relationship with a person much younger than him). ...oh... ohno, there's that that extremist relativism again!

 

[Synobun]

I can only imagine the harmony in a relationship where a man with a mortgage and a career needs to pick up his girlfriend from middle/high school. The harmony must be off the charts.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I can imagine the "harmony"