UN suspends Gazan aid operation

[Ecofarm]

That's both cryptic and not a little racist sounding.

Well, where do you think the PLO and their infrastructure came from?

Arafat was Egyptian.

Do you think it came from South America? Europe?

Arab countries is exactly where that stuff came from, why am I racist?

If you don't like the answers, research the questions yourself and counter them if you can... instead of slandering the messenger.

 

[GinandTonic]

That's a claim, not an argument. On what grounds do they believe that there is only political solution and that it has to be reached first?

Has to be reached first? Where did you get that from? Nothing to do with me.

That there will not be peace until a political solution is reached is not so much a claim or an arguement as a statement of fact, all but a tautology.

You could argue that military action is a necessary step to reaching a political solution, but to believe it is an end in itself is idiotic. It argues for a state of constant war, which quite clearly has not worked.

Again, that's a claim, without any facts supporting it. It's just a repetition of the old fallacious claim that combating terrorism actually breeds more terrorism. It has never been proved by empirical evidence.

Clearly everyone is onboard with combating terrorism and to make such an abserd strawman is foolish even by our OT standards. There are quite clearly any number of situations where the use of excessive force in putting down terrorists has generated more terrorists than it has removed. Bloody Sunday would be the example par excellence, studied in detail.

The point is that while it may be necessary to kill to reach a political solution it is not only unethical but impractical to attempt to kill everyone who disagrees with you. When the SAS killed three undoubted terrorists in Gibraltar it created a surge of sympathy for the IRA. I cant give you the names of four people who stepped up to fill the three sets of shoes but it is universally regarded as having increased sympathy fo the IRA. One of the few things all the actors in NI can agree on.

Conventional logic would suggest that the Palestinian children don't need Israeli bombs to be seduced by the terrorist - the islamist propaganda they're being fed with in schools, television (terrorist mickey mouse is just the tip of the iceberg here), in mosques etc. does all the brainwashing that's needed.

I might add that historically, appeasing the aggressor or ignoring his aggressive moves has never been met with success. On the contrary: inaction or concessions were always viewed as a sign of weakness and only encouraged the aggressor to even greater aggression.

Drivel. IRA. ETA. These types of organistions with substantial community support have only ever been sucessfully countered by adressing the ligitimate concerns of the majority and marginalizing the extremists.

Harts and minds is an attempt - once again - to put words in my mouth. The goal is not for them to all love each other, it's for them not want to kill one another on a daily basis. Prodistants and catholics still kill each other in NI but now it's a criminal matter.

Insurgency as a way of waging war against a stronger enemy is not invincible. Russia broke the Chechens in the 2nd war, Brits defeated the communists in Malaya. It can be defeated by military means, provided that you meet few conditions (sever the supply routes for starters - entirely doable in Gaza).

In fact, a military victory is often a solid prerequisite for a political/diplomatic victory.

This is probably what Israel's planning to achieve. It wants to change the military reality on the ground in its favour and then continue working on political settlement. But first and foremost it want to destroy the terrorist capacity to attack southern Israel.

But there is no insergency in Palistine Since Hamas is the elected authority they by definition cannot be insurgents. Terrorism and insurgency are not the same thing, and insurgency is an awful lot easier to deal with militarily.

 

[Ecofarm]

Hamas ceased to be the elected authority when it slaughtered all competition in the streets.

My previous post should end this thread:

I see. So the prospect that things could get worse means that inaction is best? Just let Hamas do whatever they want because it could be worse?

That's absurd. I reject such threats. I believe that, on the whole, the Palestinian people are better than Hamas - not worse. And we should give them a chance to control their own destiny free from slaughter and intimidation by terrorists among them. Given that opportunity, I believe they will rise to the occasion - just as the people of Iraq have.

But the terrorist sympathizers will bury that in BS.

Clearly everyone is onboard with combating terrorism

You haven't read any of Brennan's posts?

 

[brennan]

Arafat was Egyptian.

Fatuous, his parents were Palestinian, he was born in Cairo.

So the prospect that things could get worse means that inaction is best?

Thread-ending posts are not going to be based on a false premise are they? No-one has suggested inaction.

 

[Ecofarm]

All of his money, radicalism and prowess came from Egypt.

In Cairo, before he was seventeen Arafat was smuggling arms to Palestine to be used against the British and the Jews. At nineteen, during the war between the Jews and the Arab states, Arafat left his studies at the University of Faud I (later Cairo University) to fight against the Jews in the Gaza area. The defeat of the Arabs and the establishment of the state of Israel left him in such despair that he applied for a visa to study at the University of Texas.

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1994/arafat-bio.html

He was a 2-bit Egyptian smuggler who wanted to run to the US when he got spanked.

 

[brennan]

You mean he lived in Egypt? Undeniable evidence that the PLO was based on some pre-existing terrorist organisation this is not.

 

[Ecofarm]

His whole childhood except 4 years. Until Palestine needed a terrorist leader.

He did manage to get his degree in 1956, worked briefly in Egypt, then resettled in Kuwait, first being employed in the department of public works, next successfully running his own contracting firm. He spent all his spare time in political activities, to which he contributed most of the profits. In 1958 he and his friends founded Al-Fatah, an underground network of secret cells, which in 1959 began to publish a magazine advocating armed struggle against Israel. At the end of 1964 Arafat left Kuwait to become a full-time revolutionary, organising Fatah raids into Israel from Jordan.

So, where do you contend that the PLO and their infrastructure came from?

Not arab countries? That's racist? Then where.

My answer was neither cryptic nor racist. It was correct.

 

[Winner]

Has to be reached first? Where did you get that from? Nothing to do with me.

That there will not be peace until a political solution is reached is not so much a claim or an arguement as a statement of fact, all but a tautology.

You could argue that military action is a necessary step to reaching a political solution, but to believe it is an end in itself is idiotic. It argues for a state of constant war, which quite clearly has not worked.

*sigh*

There won't be peace regardless of any political "solution". The realistic goal here should be to limit the damage the terrorists can do to Israel to absolute minimum. In other words, Israel should strive for more security, not peace at the expense of security. Military solutions are pretty capable of achieving this realistic goal.

Clearly everyone is onboard with combating terrorism and to make such an abserd strawman is foolish even by our OT standards. There are quite clearly any number of situations where the use of excessive force in putting down terrorists has generated more terrorists than it has removed. Bloody Sunday would be the example par excellence, studied in detail.

The point is that while it may be necessary to kill to reach a political solution it is not only unethical but impractical to attempt to kill everyone who disagrees with you. When the SAS killed three undoubted terrorists in Gibraltar it created a surge of sympathy for the IRA. I cant give you the names of four people who stepped up to fill the three sets of shoes but it is universally regarded as having increased sympathy fo the IRA. One of the few things all the actors in NI can agree on.

Talk about strawmans...

You said: "and that since the IDF dont despute the universal assertion more civilians are being killed than militants that military action generates more new militants than it kills." I commented on this. The claim that every dead civilian somehow creates another militant is simply not proved.

Drivel.

A lot of it from you.

IRA. ETA. These types of organistions with substantial community support have only ever been sucessfully countered by adressing the ligitimate concerns of the majority and marginalizing the extremists.

Comparing these two organizations to Hamas and other terrorist groups in Palestine is totally out of line. The methods, goals and background is incomparable. Neither IRA or ETA wanted to destroy Britain/Spain and exterminate their citizens. Neither was massively supported by a foreign semi-totalitarian country. Neither enjoyed such a strong support in the community and neither evolved into a Hezbollah-type guerilla-terrorist movement.

In other words, neither was large enough, fanatical enough and dangerous enough to require a full-scale military solution. Also, in both Irish and Basque societies you can find political forces you can reason with, work with and which can control the terrorists (to an extent).

The situation in Palestine is different, the military solution is the only solution left there. Hamas enjoys a widespread support, it eliminated all other political forces in Gaza, it remains committed to terrorism and destruction of Israel, it is extremelly fanatical and its capacity to inflict damage to Israel is improving.

Harts and minds is an attempt - once again - to put words in my mouth. The goal is not for them to all love each other, it's for them not want to kill one another on a daily basis. Prodistants and catholics still kill each other in NI but now it's a criminal matter.

The only one who wants to kill on daily bases there are Hamas-influenced Palies. So long as Hamas reigns free in Gaza, there is absolutely no hope that anything will get better. Anybody who thinks that Hamas can be weakened by concessions and nice words from Israel is a dangerously naive idiot.

But there is no insergency in Palistine

Semantics, we're in shady area here. Hamas was elected, but then it toppled the PA authority in Gaza. For all intents and purposes, it is now an insurgent/guerilla movement fighting against the Israeli forces.

It can be defeated militarily. It probably won't be, because the Hypocritical International will force Israel to stop the operation before its forces destroy Hamas' military wing.

Since Hamas is the elected authority they by definition cannot be insurgents. Terrorism and insurgency are not the same thing, and insurgency is an awful lot easier to deal with militarily.

Explained above.

Hamas needs to be removed from power, if Israel wants to live without its rockets raining on southern Israeli cities. It can't be completely destroyed as an underground terrorist movement if it returns to its decentralized organization, but the harm it would be able to do would be much , much, much lower.