UN suspends Gazan aid operation

The only country which can end this conflict is Israel. It can end it by means of decisive military victory over the Palestinians and application of an adequately intensive violence to crush their pro-terrorist sentiments.
But Israel has already won the military conflict, as decisively as is possible. Their problem is that the conflict won't go away no matter how militarily superior they are. And that they are unwilling to institute an actual military occupation of the Palestinians, they could, because the political implications of one for Israel would be absolute poison.

Israel has won a total military victory over the Palestinans already. It's just not particularily useful without a working politcal strategy for what to do with it, one which in fact takes into the accont how limited the usefulness of military victories are. They never make underlying political problems go away.
 
Military victory impossible in Gaza: Janes Intelligence the Ozzie reports Janes Intellegence as aserting.



Seems Janes takes a General Petraues stance on the issue too.

The problem with this is simple: How do you define victory? What does constitute a victory, and what constitutes defeat?

But then again, that's the purpose of asymetric warfare. You can get anialated and still declare yourself a winner, and look like the winner in the world press.
 
But Israel has already won the military conflict, as decisively as is possible...

Israel has won a total military victory over the Palestinans already. It's just not particularily useful without a working politcal strategy for what to do with it, one which in fact takes into the accont how limited the usefulness of military victories are. They never make underlying political problems go away.

Israel is not fighting Palestine. They are fighting Hamas and other terrorist elements. Total military victory = their destruction, and it is not yet accomplished. Thus, the military campaign continues.

When Hamas leaders are dragged (hopefully dead) from the hospital basement in which they hide while giving orders to attack civilians, we will be much closer to military victory.
 
Israel is not fighting Palestine. They are fighting Hamas and other terrorist elements. Total military victory = their destruction, and it is not yet accomplished. Thus, the military campaign continues.

When Hamas leaders are dragged (hopefully dead) from the hospital basement in which they hide while giving orders to attack civilians, we will be much closer to military victory.

What happens if another organization starts up after this one is gone? :confused:
 
Well, that's what we are hoping for. A moderate organization that will stop using children like dogs and seek a peaceful 2-state or integrated solution.

Obviously, Hamas will never take that path so they gotta go.

If another organization pops up that demands the destruction of Israel as the only solution... then here we go again. It's not like we can just give up on peace, or let terrorists reign.

By your pessimistic assumption (new terrorists will always appear), change is impossible (because Hamas will not change - they have been given countless opportunities). Is that what you want?

I believe that once the Palestinian people have been freed from the monster that is Hamas, they will look around and start thinking for themselves.
 
Well, that's what we are hoping for. A moderate organization that will stop using children like dogs and seek a peaceful 2-state or integrated solution.

Obviously, Hamas will never take that path so they gotta go.

If another organization pops up that demands the destruction of Israel as the only solution... then here we go again. It's not like we can just give up on peace, or let terrorists reign.

By your pessimistic assumption (new terrorists will always appear), change is impossible (because Hamas will not change - they have been given countless opportunities). Is that what you want?

Whilst it is more likely that the new organisation will be even more dedicated to the destruction of Israel than Hamas is.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat?
 
I don't know what makes you believe that. It really cannot get any worse than Hamas; these people kill their own children on purpose.

Arguing to leave them in power is quite disgusting and something done with sincerity pretty much only by fundie Muslims.
 
I see. So the prospect that things could get worse means that inaction is best? Just let Hamas do whatever they want because it could be worse?

That's absurd. I reject such threats. I believe that, on the whole, the Palestinian people are better than Hamas - not worse. And we should give them a chance to control their own destiny free from slaughter and intimidation by terrorists among them. Given that opportunity, I believe they will rise to the occasion - just as the people of Iraq have.

 
I see. So the prospect that things could get worse means that inaction is best? Just let Hamas do whatever they want because it could be worse?

That's absurd. I reject such threats. I believe that, on the whole, the Palestinian people are better than Hamas - not worse. And we should give them a chance to control their own destiny free from slaughter and intimidation by terrorists among them. Given that opportunity, I believe they will rise to the occasion - just as the people of Iraq have.


I certainly don't disagree with your enthusiasm, but are you sure that the motivational effect of the war on the Palestinian population will be a happy one?
 
Of course not. The psychological impact is terrible. But I think that, given the opportunity, reason will prevail with the Palestinian people. Unless Hamas is allowed to prevail.
 
That's absurd. I reject such threats. I believe that, on the whole, the Palestinian people are better than Hamas - not worse. And we should give them a chance to control their own destiny free from slaughter and intimidation by terrorists among them. Given that opportunity, I believe they will rise to the occasion - just as the people of Iraq have.

They elected Hamas you know :lol:
 
I'm sure that was not under duress. :rollie eyes:

Hamas subsequently slaughtered unarmed members of Al Fatah in the streets - that had an impact on Palestinians and it effectively nullified any illusion of democracy.

You can pretend the election was free and fair, but let's not forget that Hamas murders and tortures dissenters. And that Hamas controls the propaganda.
 
You realize that violence on that level would create a breeding-ground for terrorists.. right?

The arguement roughly speaking would be that only a poiltical soloution can provide peace,

That's a claim, not an argument. On what grounds do they believe that there is only political solution and that it has to be reached first?

and that since the IDF dont despute the universal assertion more civilians are being killed than militants that military action generates more new militants than it kills.

Again, that's a claim, without any facts supporting it. It's just a repetition of the old fallacious claim that combating terrorism actually breeds more terrorism. It has never been proved by empirical evidence.

In the very short term it will disrupt C+C, supplies etc but in the longer term it solidifies support around the world for the militants and is the shilling on the drum for a new generation of Palistian children.

Conventional logic would suggest that the Palestinian children don't need Israeli bombs to be seduced by the terrorist - the islamist propaganda they're being fed with in schools, television (terrorist mickey mouse is just the tip of the iceberg here), in mosques etc. does all the brainwashing that's needed.

I might add that historically, appeasing the aggressor or ignoring his aggressive moves has never been met with success. On the contrary: inaction or concessions were always viewed as a sign of weakness and only encouraged the aggressor to even greater aggression.

You can't beat a man 'til he stops hating you.

If there's one extra naive idea in circulation, it is that Israel could somehow win "hearts and minds" of the Palestinians. That's clearly impossible due to the extreme religious/ethnic/culturall hatred fueled by islamist propaganda that exists in the region.

Didn't work in NI. Didn't work in Iraq. As a solution to insergency I cant think of it ever having worked anywhere much. Political solutions or just killing every civillian are the only things that have ever worked in the long term.

Insurgency as a way of waging war against a stronger enemy is not invincible. Russia broke the Chechens in the 2nd war, Brits defeated the communists in Malaya. It can be defeated by military means, provided that you meet few conditions (sever the supply routes for starters - entirely doable in Gaza).

In fact, a military victory is often a solid prerequisite for a political/diplomatic victory.

This is probably what Israel's planning to achieve. It wants to change the military reality on the ground in its favour and then continue working on political settlement. But first and foremost it want to destroy the terrorist capacity to attack southern Israel.
 
Well, that's what we are hoping for. A moderate organization that will stop using children like dogs and seek a peaceful 2-state or integrated solution.
Israel has been doing this for forty years. Every time it put one "monster" down an even more implacable one has arisen to take its place. You can kill the present generation of activist fighters, and another takes its place. It's going to be bigger than ever too, considering the Palestinian demographics.

Essentially you're arguing "maybe it will work this time". Yes, maybe. It's just that it never did before, and there isn't really anything significantly new about the conflict to make that kind of wishful thinking more probable. Considering the compunded bloodshed and bitterness generated since 1967, the direct opposite outcome is way more likely.
 
Israel has been doing this for forty years. Every time it put one "monster" down an even more implacable one has arisen to take its place. You can kill the present generation of activist fighters, and another takes its place. It's going to be bigger than ever too, considering the Palestinian demographics.

Essentially you're arguing "maybe it will work this time". Yes, maybe. It's just that it never did before, and there isn't really anything significantly new about the conflict to make that kind of wishful thinking more probable. Considering the compunded bloodshed and bitterness generated since 1967, the direct opposite outcome is way more likely.

I disagree with the premise of your argument. Further, you fail to understand that killing all the terrorist leaders and completely destroying their infrastructure has never been attempted, let alone accomplished. Arafat died of old age.

There is no "maybe it will work this time". It's never been done before. I'm talking about the utter destruction of all that is most evil in Palestine.

It is this very real threat of the obliteration of Hamas and its infrastructure that has the terrorist apologists frantic.

Go Israel, and leave no stone unturned.
 
I disagree with the premise of your argument. Further, you fail to understand that killing all the terrorist leaders and completely destroying their infrastructure has never been attempted, let alone accomplished. Arafat died of old age.

There is no "maybe it will work this time". It's never been done before. I'm talking about the utter destruction of all that is most evil in Palestine.
From what terrorist leaders and infrastructure did the PLO arise?
 
Top Bottom