• Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .

Unconditional base income?

How is that a different issue than the current one? Welfare income vs minimum wage.
It's probably a good thing if there's a difference between the two. If the minimum wages are kept at a reasonable level, some production might move, but there are a lot low-level work, mainly in service sector, that can't be moved.
If they're serious about the suggestion of handing out SFr2500 every month, and have a plan for how it's financed, they should be open about it. As some already has concluded, it will have a quite large impact on the society. If they believe people will continue to work as they do due to the love of their work, they should say so and let people decide whether it's a good assumption or not.
They should give their analysis for how the SFr will be influenced short term and long term, how subsidized wages will affect companies, employees and international relationships.
A few lines of text and the promise of SFr2500 extra each month to all adults in Switzerland will surely get the support of few select groups, but it seems dishonest.
Hm that reminds me of the claim that doubling the wages of textile factory workers in Bangladesh would increase the cost of T-shirts by a negligible cent-amount.
@Loppan Torkel
I for one see some considerable risk. I just think it is worth being taken. Of course, I also understand when a guy from Switzerland doesn't want to be the one taking it. But then, better a small nation than a big one.
It might be worth the risk. That's another question. So far most risks seem to have been ignored or juggled between different interpretations.


One amazing possibility for the Swiss would be the lowered cost of production for companies in Switzerland. The profits could be huge because of the state subsidized wages.
 
If you're saying that people wouldn't be motivated to find work if they can live at some basic minimum level without work, how do you explain that people now are motivated to continue working long after they've achieved this basic minimum level?

You can't have it both ways: either people are motivated to work solely to avoid starvation (and for no other reasons) or they are not.
You are rocketing these people into a middle class lifestyle not a bare minimum existence, PLENTY of people would be satisfied at that level. Sure if you gave them just enough a month to eat, cloth themselves, and get a roach hotel quality apartment people would still be motivated to work, but if they can get all the nice little luxuries of the middle class, have a decent enough home, etc a huge chunk will be pleased there and do nothing.
 
OK.


How do you explain why (some of) the very wealthiest people continue to work?

(And yes 2,500 SF does seem quite a lot per month. It's about £1750. Which is at least double what I have to live on. Still, given the cost of living in Switzerland, I'm not sure it puts them into the middle classes. Opinions may differ, of course.)
 
OK.


How do you explain why (some of) the very wealthiest people continue to work?
They're ambitious and take pleasure from being in a position of power?!
 
You are rocketing these people into a middle class lifestyle not a bare minimum existence, PLENTY of people would be satisfied at that level. Sure if you gave them just enough a month to eat, cloth themselves, and get a roach hotel quality apartment people would still be motivated to work, but if they can get all the nice little luxuries of the middle class, have a decent enough home, etc a huge chunk will be pleased there and do nothing.

Do you have any empirical evidence to support this?
 
Does any side have any evidence for what would happen? It's an experiment. I believe Kramerfan is correct in his assumption. There might still be some motivation for activity. I bet many would pick up a drinking habit. Some would plot their life-long dream of the perfect heist. Some would continue to wipe the arses of unknown, old people.
 
Do you have any empirical evidence to support this?
Nope, but I dont think any government should spend roughly the equivalent of its entire budget experimenting on it when it already has a fairly solid safety net in place.
 
Sure I get that. I got it at page 2 - "Who will work at McDonald's, clean houses, drive buses or take care of elderly if they earn the same as those who get up at 10 and play games all day?" - which subsequently was corrected by a few people because - 'yes, people would still have incentive to work at those places, because it's salary + SFr2500'. Of, course if the salary is changed to become too low, you'd still end up with the original issue - people not working at low-level jobs.


I'm surprised that so many believe they have this sorted out (perhaps not that they'd like to see Switzerland being a guinea pig) with this little info. It's almost if they support it purely for ideological reasons without looking at the potential risks involved in the experiment.

That's kind of the point there would be drastic job loss for low wage workers and then increases on the low scale. Likewise you would also be establishing kinks on the middle and high end wage workers. But what this does allow is for workers to effectively choose and agree with whatever income they are offered.

Of course people will refuse to work, but in the ends its not a bad thing. In the more developed urban centers this allows those whos utilities are better satisfied by working to be able to find work and those who are too lazy/satisfied still have basic income that they can return to the economy through consumer spending. Creating a baseline actually certainly will reduce workforce hours initially and quite probably permanently, but theoretically everyone would be paid their correct wages [Since no worker whether high end or low end would have as much an incentive to agree to a wage they don't believe fits them, reshuffling demand until absolute worker value utilities are matched]

Inflation probably would occur at relatively increased rates, but this isn't another Zimbabwe case. Unlike Zimbabwe where only certain segments of society enjoyed temporary increased wages, this creates an absolute baseline and therefore adjustment would have to come from the political system. Inflation can be a monster for sure and it would probably happen in this case, but considering that 2k-2.5k SFr per person will be injected into the direct consumer economy the amount of capital open to create new alternative businesses will be available to potentially compete over-time against inflation.

So in short:

- True Wages will most likely occur
- Inflation would occur and mostly after a few months after the program's implementation but probably would slow down a year after/months after
- Workforce hours will decrease
- Firms that rely on low skill labor would have to significantly readjust or face failure in the initial period
- High injection of capital into the low end sector of the population would mean firms would have an added incentive to refocus their attentions to this now guaranteed income low demographic sector
 
It's probably a good thing if there's a difference between the two. If the minimum wages are kept at a reasonable level, some production might move, but there are a lot low-level work, mainly in service sector, that can't be moved.

I merely meant that the point you raised did not arise from the new situation. A similar point can be made wrt minimum wage vs welfare income.
 
They're ambitious and take pleasure from being in a position of power?!
And don't the same things motivate people who are less wealthy?

So, if wealth doesn't automatically demotivate the wealthy, why would it demotivate the less wealthy?
 
Let's be frank, the ultra rich probably have a bit more ability to hand pick a job that actually interests them and satisfies them but at the same time doesnt annoy them or strain them than someone whose options consist of bottom of the barrel service style jobs.
 
That has literally no relationship to the discussion....


See, that's not the free market. That's just being an apologist for market failure, because you think it works for you.

No, what your trying to do is to intervene on supply and demand for labor. That's not free market. Any market relies on it to work. There's more supply than demand for low skill labor so prices will be low. That's not the market failing. That's the market working.
The necessity to work to provide for oneself is not an unnatural friction or force that free market or capitalism brought about. It exists in every economic system and has always been a natural market force.

You seem to have this strange notion that free market does not anyone fail, that is totally not true. Free market favors the talented and able and is harsh towards those without ability.
 
No, what your trying to do is to intervene on supply and demand for labor. That's not free market. Any market relies on it to work. There's more supply than demand for low skill labor so prices will be low. That's not the market failing. That's the market working.
The necessity to work to provide for oneself is not an unnatural friction or force that free market or capitalism brought about. It exists in every economic system and has always been a natural market force.

You seem to have this strange notion that free market does not anyone fail, that is totally not true. Free market favors the talented and able and is harsh towards those without ability.

Do you have any actual point to make?
 
If I had the choice of working 0 hours and earning 25,000 or working 40 hours a week and earning 50,000, I'll take the 0 hour work week every time. My wife, working as a CNA, feels the same. But if she had an office job she would take the extra work for the extra money.
 
No, what your trying to do is to intervene on supply and demand for labor. That's not free market. Any market relies on it to work. There's more supply than demand for low skill labor so prices will be low. That's not the market failing. That's the market working.
The necessity to work to provide for oneself is not an unnatural friction or force that free market or capitalism brought about. It exists in every economic system and has always been a natural market force.

You seem to have this strange notion that free market does not anyone fail, that is totally not true. Free market favors the talented and able and is harsh towards those without ability.


If someone puts a gun to your head and tells you to hand over your wallet, and you do, then that's a free market transaction, and it is the most economically efficient outcome that could have taken place.
 
And what would you do with your time?

Post on CFC full time.

Seriously, I would take care of the kids (wont need to pay for daycare), spend more time on my hobbies, watch tv, spend more time on the yard and house, etc. If I want to do work I will go volunteer somewhere, where I can work however much or as little as I want.

If this 'basic income' is for every person, including kids, We would work on having some more kids. We would already earn 100,000 per year without working.
 
No. It's only a quarter for kids. So, that really only pays for their basic necessities too.

Surely you'd have more ambition to give your kids something beyond their basic needs?
 
No. It's only a quarter for kids. So, that really only pays for their basic necessities too.

Surely you'd have more ambition to give your kids something beyond their basic needs?

Material things or spending more time with them, which do you think is more important?
 
Top Bottom