Underemployment and worthless college degrees

[Loppan Torkel]

... Like said, charm school would have helped. ...

Do you really mean some kind of charm school as an actual thing? There are courses in these areas, but in all seriousness, they're like the idea of 'life coaches'. Of course there some room for improvement that can help you out a bit, but honestly, it's mostly a waste of time and resources imo. Some may feel otherwise though...

 

[The_J]

I'm not even sure it's that good from a hiring angle, unless it's done very carefully.

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/FindingGreatDevelopers.html

Just read this (and a few linked articles), very interesting.
Sounds like overkill for me, but I guess the result is what counts.

Do you really mean some kind of charm school as an actual thing? There are courses in these areas, but in all seriousness, they're like the idea of 'life coaches'. Of course there some room for improvement that can help you out a bit, but honestly, it's mostly a waste of time and resources imo. Some may feel otherwise though...

No, didn't mean that, I plainly meant connecting, networking.
Maybe not even that as the main purpose.
I mean...you need to get someone to write you a recommendation letter, or to recommend you to somebody else. How do you do that? By getting to know a person.
But how do you do that with a doctor or professor at the university?
Obvious way is to write a thesis at them. If you're good at what you're doing, they'll not have a problem recommending you. You know, I failed at that for my Bachelor thesis, failed to connect to my supervisors (like said: partially self inflicted). This is the easiest way, you shouldn't fail at it.
Else, you can work in the department. Even if you just help with correcting tests, you'll somehow work together with one of the postdocs, which might be enough. Or you can get some connections by other activites in the university, organizational things, other voluntary work. I did nothing like that.
The last resort is probably to shine during practical courses (if they take longer than a day). One of my fellow students mentioned that I should ask some of the course supervisors, because that worked for her. My answer was something along the line "I guess they'll probably remember me, and I'm sure they don't have anything positive to say".

This is how you end after 5 years with nearly no personal connections (in a professional relevant way), not even weak ones. This is how you should not do it.
It's not hard. But if you never think about it (which applied for me, and probably some people more too), you can still manage to fail at it.
Well, lesson learned, at my end.

 

[Zelig]

Just read this (and a few linked articles), very interesting.
Sounds like overkill for me, but I guess the result is what counts.

Yeah, certainly don't take Spolsky as gospel, but he's an interesting read.

 

[Elta]

College is not trade school and it never has been.

 

[Zelig]

College is not trade school and it never has been.

Depends where. In Canada "colleges" are pretty close to "trade schools".

 

[History_Buff]

But that's just because we tend to make a semantic distinction between the terms University and College, which I don't think the rest of the world bothers with (a university simply being a collection of colleges for most I think).

And then we aren't even consistent about it.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

No, didn't mean that, I plainly meant connecting, networking.
Maybe not even that as the main purpose.
I mean...you need to get someone to write you a recommendation letter, or to recommend you to somebody else. How do you do that? By getting to know a person.
But how do you do that with a doctor or professor at the university?
Obvious way is to write a thesis at them. If you're good at what you're doing, they'll not have a problem recommending you. You know, I failed at that for my Bachelor thesis, failed to connect to my supervisors (like said: partially self inflicted). This is the easiest way, you shouldn't fail at it.
Else, you can work in the department. Even if you just help with correcting tests, you'll somehow work together with one of the postdocs, which might be enough. Or you can get some connections by other activites in the university, organizational things, other voluntary work. I did nothing like that.
The last resort is probably to shine during practical courses (if they take longer than a day). One of my fellow students mentioned that I should ask some of the course supervisors, because that worked for her. My answer was something along the line "I guess they'll probably remember me, and I'm sure they don't have anything positive to say".

This is how you end after 5 years with nearly no personal connections (in a professional relevant way), not even weak ones. This is how you should not do it.
It's not hard. But if you never think about it (which applied for me, and probably some people more too), you can still manage to fail at it.
Well, lesson learned, at my end.

Ok, I see your point and perhaps you could've done more, but to me it seems like you, Ayatollah So and probably many others trivialize the difficulty in networking and socializing as a career move. It's far too easy to look back at things and say one should have been more of a party animal at college or befriended more professors, etc. If you could, you probably would've done it.
I don't have connections left with any of my teachers. Many others are better in allying themselves to important people, therefor I made a choice and left for another city where I knew I'd have a better opportunity. It payed off.

 

[bugwar]

College is not trade school and it never has been.

Really?

I take it you are not an engineer.

 

[Flying Pig]

But that's just because we tend to make a semantic distinction between the terms University and College, which I don't think the rest of the world bothers with (a university simply being a collection of colleges for most I think).

And then we aren't even consistent about it.

In the British system we have two meanings of 'college': the main one is a bit like 'trade school', being an establishment for 16-18 year olds normally offering vocational training. What Americans call college we call University, and the top universities - Oxford, Cambridge and Durham to a lesser extent - are in fact confederations of colleges. As such, 'I went to college' has exactly the opposite social connotation in the UK as it does in the US, but 'I went to King's College' marks you out as not just a graduate, but the cream of the university crop. I've talked about this before, but I certainly don't believe that the entire or even the primary role of education is to prepare people for work.

 

[The_J]

Ok, I see your point and perhaps you could've done more, but to me it seems like you, Ayatollah So and probably many others trivialize the difficulty in networking and socializing as a career move. It's far too easy to look back at things and say one should have been more of a party animal at college or befriended more professors, etc. If you could, you probably would've done it.

I'm not sure if I get you about the trivializing part. Some more sentences please .

I don't have connections left with any of my teachers. Many others are better in allying themselves to important people, therefor I made a choice and left for another city where I knew I'd have a better opportunity. It payed off.

Even in a new city some connections might be worth something. You never know who knows who.
In fact, in my first application interview, the professor said "Oh, I've seen you've studied at X [300 km away]. Do you know Prof. Y? He had worked here before he went to X.". And you know what? I did know that guy, he gave a few lectures there, I've heard 2 at him.
In some fields there are just not too many people, and it might pay out if you know somebody.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Yup, that's basically it. Referrals make our clients more comfortable, and yes, it does disadvantage minorities and poors a little bit, but there really isn't much you can do about that.

Except, oddly enough, go to college. It's one thing no one wants to admit for some reason, but one of the best things you can do at college is make some connections.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Really?

I take it you are not an engineer.

Not everybody is an engineer.

And not everybody gets an engineering degree from a college where many of the non-engineering courses needed for accreditation aren't complete jokes, as they are at many colleges that only offer engineering and other technical degrees.

But it is revealing how many engineers actually think that college should be a trade school. They really miss many of the primary points of a higher education. They don't even seem to find it important that their own college education was frequently woefully inadequate in so many ways. That they didn't even really attend an institute of higher learning as much as they did a real trade school that just happened to teach a few selected college-level subjects.

 

[bugwar]

Not everybody is an engineer.

Never wrote that they were.

And not everybody gets an engineering degree from a college where many of the non-engineering courses needed for accreditation aren't complete jokes, as they are at many colleges that only offer engineering or technical degrees.

Yep.
And those engineers have similar careers and earn similar pay to those who graduate a college you approve of.

Of course, those 'nerds' who haven't met your education standards will just have to cry all the way to the bank about their inadequacies.

 

[wapamingo]

For us Canadians, what is the US equivalent of our college degree?

On the topic of useless degrees and networking:

Networking gets you noticed and can point the door, but you have to open them. At entry level jobs, pointing the door is maybe all that is required. For experienced professionals, networking may point to the juicy doors but you have to pull real hard.

I think that some degrees have a very tight job market, and students going for these degrees may not have a clear understanding of the industry. This is why it is important to do some homework ahead of choosing what may seem like something you would like to do. The thing is if you are passionate about a certain field and have talent towards that field, you will naturaly gravitate towards the leading people of that field (these being your idols) and subconsiously network. For the rest of us it may be a concious effort or have not truly found that one passionate thing.

I'll tell you my story. Decided to go into engineering, mainly due to capability and not really passion. Too young to care. Got accepted for aerospace, asked my old man if that is good (him being in that field). He says to me: "son, no jobs". "OK, I got accepted for mining as well". To this he said "we are in Canada my son, what do you think?" Well, the best decision of my life (besides kid and wife). I think this goes to the point that one has to make an informed decision on something that affects the rest of ones life.

Maybe that went on a tangent, i appologize. The thing is you cannot go through life on passive mode, thing will not be given to you rather everyone else is looking to take from you.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

I'm not sure if I get you about the trivializing part. Some more sentences please .

The reasoning was:

Spoiler :

Education isn't necessarily about work.

The reasons why most un(der)employed people are un(der)employed come down to Who You Know and/or the state of the economy. Who You Know is an absolutely craptastic way to fill positions, but I don't see any realistic way to put an end to the domination of that system.

If you want an education that will get you a job, go to charm school. Learn networking, learn How To Win Friends and Influence People.

What I'm saying is that if you excel at networking, creating contacts to influential people, etc, that's great and you'll get work in no time. The problem is for those who want a job and don't excel at networking, 'winning friends' or influencing people. I don't see the solution for them is to learn these skills if they haven't succeeded in learning them proficiently for their first 25-30 years. It's better to focus on the strengths and look at the situation strategically. If you can get a job by moving or finding a niche education where you're more or less guaranteed a job, that's what needs to be done. There will always be opportunities to hone the social skills at the new job.

Even in a new city some connections might be worth something. You never know who knows who.
In fact, in my first application interview, the professor said "Oh, I've seen you've studied at X [300 km away]. Do you know Prof. Y? He had worked here before he went to X.". And you know what? I did know that guy, he gave a few lectures there, I've heard 2 at him.
In some fields there are just not too many people, and it might pay out if you know somebody.

Of course, I'm not saying knowing people won't be to your advantage, just that 'going to charm school', even meant figuratively, won't help those who are having trouble finding jobs. ...and of course, this is only under the premise that people aren't acting as total asses. Common decency is expected if you're looking for jobs.

 

[Chiteng]

I didnt promise non-citizens any jobs. It is NOT my responsibility to to enable them.
My largesse is to actual CITIZENS who need work. Not extra-nationals.

If your degree is so valuable, I am sure you will do well in your country of Origin.

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[FredLC]

Hmmm. my reality is probably somewhat alien in this angle. I graduated in law, and than went through trials to get a job as lawyer in a public bank. Therefore, I have a secure, reasonably well paid job (even if I toy with the hopes of becoming a judge now and again), and never really had to worry too much about the poverty of the job market.

I've been "somewhat" under-employed though, as I got a not-too-great paying job in a law office early after graduating, while I waited on the results that got me approved in the bank. But I always knew I weren't there for the duration.

So, except for some summer schemes before college, I never had a day of work that did not fully require my college degree.

Regards .

 

[Zelig]

Not everybody is an engineer.

I know.

 

[innonimatu]

Not everybody is an engineer.

And not everybody gets an engineering degree from a college where many of the non-engineering courses needed for accreditation aren't complete jokes, as they are at many colleges that only offer engineering and other technical degrees.

But it is revealing how many engineers actually think that college should be a trade school. They really miss many of the primary points of a higher education. They don't even seem to find it important that their own college education was frequently woefully inadequate in so many ways. That they didn't even really attend an institute of higher learning as much as they did a real trade school that just happened to teach a few selected college-level subjects.

Speaking from the vantage point of knowing well a university specialized in engineering and having met students from all over Europe, I believe that you are some 10 to 15 years late with that diagnosis. The problem was recognized and the better universities started trying to fix it even before the Bologna process education reforms across Europe. Now students are encouraged to move between courses and universities, as most do a 3-year Bachelor degree and then a further two-year masters. Not to mention the postgraduates. Still relatively little crossing between natural sciences and humanities but even that is happening now.

Few current students of engineering would call for a course of the "trade school" kind. And no professor would even dare voice such a desire publicly, so out-of-fashion it has become! Trade school is an insult to be throw at some other universities!

But, going back on topic, another thing I've noticed is a steady swelling of the number of post-graduates and phD students doing - let's be honest - crappy research jobs. Or rather, research jobs with crappy payment. It does seem that rising youth unemployment is the major reason for their increasing numbers.

 

[bombshoo]

The anti-college, and especially anti-liberal arts crusade seems to be sort of an attempt to dodge the problem at hand by simply blaming the victims. No matter what they should have done, a lot of people did get liberal arts degrees and are now out there, unemployed and unable to go back to school for whatever reason. It's quite easy to say they should have/could have gone for a STEM degree and/or made more connections, but that doesn't exactly solve anything at this stage in the game. So what are they supposed to do? Get a (probably part-time) job at Walmart? That's all well and good if that's what you believe, but that doesn't solve much, especially in the way of them paying off their student debt. And what about all the non-college educated people now being pushed to total unemployment?

And newsflash, as automation increases, and with the recent trend of hiring more part-timer workers, many of the minimum wage jobs will be hiring less and less as time goes on.

So basically, my point is, maybe mistakes were made. It's easy to point fingers. That doesn't really solve the problem of what do we with half a generation of people who can't find good stable jobs.