Unhealth/unhappiness removing wonders/buildings/civics and properties.

[Thunderbrd]

Now throw in the back filling of territory to consolidate borders and to grab as much overseas unclaimed territory too and the AI is woefully short on filling demand for High level Education buildings, high level LE and Health units.

Keep in mind I've also had to debug them to keep them from overtraining for this role. They should be able to keep up. The education, however, since we don't have a unit for that, will have to be toned down. Until we can get a new unit chain in place for later game, I'll have to just cut off the expanding pop requirement at Rennaissance and beyond it sounds like. For now.

I can see how the AI might want to get more gold so builds crime buildings that give it but also exacerbate the issue if not properly managed, though I find it easier to build them, get the gold, and just staff an extra crime fighter unit at an overall profit. And that's what the AI would do.

I'll look more at what you have to say later tonight.

 

[Lacero]

I've played three games properly, but only to classic, ren and classic again.

The building situation is definitely the biggest barrier to new players, even more than all of tbirds combat mods.
His mods make sense!

The buildings are very inconsistent, and looking for the right one is extremely time consuming. After a while you learn which have what resources and you can use the filters but those filters are so slow it's painful to do even that.

That said, I don't think you can reorg them even as a mega project. I saw somewhere you intend to make number of resources matter, so number of gold ores etc.
I think this is needed before tackling the building situation.

But, man. You really need to know which ones are good and build their requirements blind.
Or you'll have a dozen +1 gold +1 culture buildings doing nothing.

 

[Noriad2]

I now understand Why the AI is constantly coming thru Diplomacy asking for a Huge list of LE and Health units with some Dog units and a few seige/cannon thrown in. And all they offer is a Tech you don't have and a few hundred in . Why? because they can't build enough high level units because it costs so much. And it's also the reason they have very small treasuries in this Era.

How do you determine their treasury level?

Because if you go into the trade screen the AI's show low treasury, but if you collect enough espionage points and click on one of their cities, it shows they have a much higher treasury.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

What about settler promotions? You build a special trainer building, a settler unit built in that city gets a promotion, and when founding a new city this results in a building being built immediately.

Currently it only works for human players. AI players don't know which unit built the city so can't see what promotions it had. This is the reason we got rid of the Colonist. Besides just having free buildings rather than giving all the free promotions to a unit and then working out which buildings they get is simpler.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Currently it only works for human players. AI players don't know which unit built the city so can't see what promotions it had. This is the reason we got rid of the Colonist. Besides just having free buildings rather than giving all the free promotions to a unit and then working out which buildings they get is simpler.

Why make the promotions free? Make them select what they wish to have autobuilt so there's some choice in the matter! We could give them some free promotions based on certain factors, perhaps those that represent what the people would demand to have ready to go in place, but having a selectable list would add some strategy. AI shouldn't be difficult. The unit would need to be able to get XP as well.

It would take a new tag and some process in the dll to make it work but it would be pretty trivial actually. Not that any project actually is trivial.

 

[raxo2222]

As for magic buildings (screenshots of them is in this link) I changed a bit suggestion.

Spoiler :

Buildings removing unhappiness from city (<bNoUnhappiness>)
Disneyland WW <Volkyria module>; 0.2 per pop, can't be placed in same city as other + happiness wonders.
Ark of the Covenant WW; 0.2 per pop, can't be placed in same city as other + happiness wonders.
Globe Theatre WW; 0.2 per pop, can't be placed in same city as other + happiness wonders.
Sydney Opera House WW; 0.2 per pop, can't be placed in same city as other + happiness wonders.
Theatre of Dionysus WW; 0.2 per pop, can't be placed in same city as other + happiness wonders.
Some wonders require buildings, that go obsolete sooner or later.
Mind-Control Center - THIS ONE IS HIGH-TECH; 0.5 per pop - this is far future, pretty extreme building and it requires Mind Control (Rule) civic.

Buildings removing unhealthiness from city.
CITY SIZE UNHEALTH (<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>)
Kotoku-in WW - No health bonus per pop. City/Global Health could be used instead. (Requires Buddism state religion)
Park Arcology - THIS ONE IS HIGH-TECH; 0.2 per pop. It requires civic - Paradise (Welfare)
Body Exchange Clinic - THIS ONE IS HIGH-TECH; 0.1 per pop.
Following civics can do this too: Superhuman (Welfare) (late era civic); 0.2 per pop.
You can have either Superhuman civic or Paradise civic, that allows you to create Park Arcologies.

BUILDINGS UNHEALTH (<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>)
Matter Decompiler - THIS ONE IS HIGH-TECH; 0.1 per pop.
Shaman Cathedral <Custom_religions module> - No health bonus per pop. City health instead. (Requires Shaman state religion)
Druid Cathedral <Custom_religions module> - No health bonus per pop. City health instead. (Requires Druid state religion)

Since you can have either Shaman (Spirit Alliance), Druid (Nature Alliance) or Buddhism (Kotoku-in WW), then shaman/druid buildings could have their city health, and Kotoku-in could have Global health modifier to be competitive with shamanism/druidism.

As for hardcore Mormons this would be nice:
Basically create three Effect: Mormon resource ban buildings.
They would ban resources as originally Mormon buildings did.
Their spawn conditions would be:
Mormon religion as state religion and certain religious civics.
Each of them would need one of Mormon buildings.
Effect: Mormon Tobacco ban - needs Mormon Cathedral.
Effect: Mormon Coffee ban - needs Mormon Monastery.
Effect: Mormon Tea ban - needs Mormon Shrine.

Mormon buildings still would remove bonuses, but bonus removals would be triggered if Mormon was state religion, and you had some more hardcore religious civics.
To compensate these effect buildings could boost culture or something.

Spoiler :

There are few buildings requiring such resources, others gets boost from them.
No idea how "requires x in city vicinity" buildings would act on Mormon resource ban.
DH even said, that resource ban trough autobuildings being triggered by Mormon state religion is fine solution.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/mormons-are-no-exception.617785/#post-14788281

 

[Faustmouse]

I like the aspect of having it as state religion. Also I think that these buildings could give -10% with tea etc instead, as you suggested.
But it is up to you DH, and honestly, I don't really care if they remove access to these resources, as these are not that usefull... Have you considered banning alkohol for Islam too? Or Pigs? Cows for Hindus or Gold Wares for Buddism?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I like the aspect of having it as state religion. Also I think that these buildings could give -10% with tea etc instead, as you suggested.
But it is up to you DH, and honestly, I don't really care if they remove access to these resources, as these are not that usefull... Have you considered banning alkohol for Islam too? Or Pigs? Cows for Hindus or Gold Wares for Buddism?

Have considered them. Allowing the option of replacing the map resource or changing the improvement to "sacred site" type thing that gives commerce and tourism for holy animals. Islam only bans grape based alcohol, I think, and I have been considering introducing other ways of getting alcohol. Too many times I have not had access to any grains or fruit but only potatoes.

 

[climat]

Have you considered banning alkohol for Islam too? Or Pigs? Cows for Hindus or Gold Wares for Buddism?

I've never heard of it. Golden stupa is one of the characteristics of Theravada Buddhist architecture in Southeast Asia.

 

[Septentrion]

Islam only bans grape based alcohol

No. Intoxication is banned. Is C2C going to have a bunch of bans based on urban legends versions of religions? I see we're still holding on to mormons banning tea. They do actually prohibit alcohol.

 

[Faustmouse]

I've never heard of it. Golden stupa is one of the characteristics of Theravada Buddhist architecture in Southeast Asia.

That was just a random idea that popped up in my mind. Isn't it so that buddists devalue every material good?

This whole system would also be a good countermeasure to stacking relegions IMO.

 

[Noriad2]

There is a black market for alcohol in many Islamic countries.

 

[Faustmouse]

There is a black market for alcohol in many Islamic countries.

People that don't follow every word of their divine laws? No way!

 

[raxo2222]

So we are restoring Mormon bonus removals in indirect way and nerfing property unhealth/unhappiness blockers?

Three Effect: Mormon resource ban buildings.
They would ban resources as originally Mormon buildings did.
Their spawn conditions would be:
Mormon religion as state religion and certain religious civics - those permitting state religion for example.
Each of them would need one of Mormon buildings.
Effect: Mormon Tobacco ban - needs Mormon Cathedral.
Effect: Mormon Coffee ban - needs Mormon Monastery.
Effect: Mormon Tea ban - needs Mormon Shrine.

Buildings removing unhappiness from city (<bNoUnhappiness>)
Disneyland WW <Volkyria module>; 0.2 per pop, can't be placed in same city as other + happiness wonders.
Ark of the Covenant WW; 0.2 per pop, can't be placed in same city as other + happiness wonders.
Globe Theatre WW; 0.2 per pop, can't be placed in same city as other + happiness wonders.
Sydney Opera House WW; 0.2 per pop, can't be placed in same city as other + happiness wonders.
Theatre of Dionysus WW; 0.2 per pop, can't be placed in same city as other + happiness wonders.
Some wonders require buildings, that go obsolete sooner or later (can be changed by adding such building replacements as valid OR requirement)
Mind-Control Center - THIS ONE IS HIGH-TECH; 0.5 per pop - this is far future, pretty extreme building and it requires Mind Control (Rule) civic.

Buildings removing unhealthiness from city.
CITY SIZE UNHEALTH (<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>)
Kotoku-in WW - No health bonus per pop. City/Global Health could be used instead. (Requires Buddism state religion)
Park Arcology - THIS ONE IS HIGH-TECH; 0.2 per pop. It requires civic - Paradise (Welfare)
Body Exchange Clinic - THIS ONE IS HIGH-TECH; 0.1 per pop.
Following civics can do this too: Superhuman (Welfare) (late era civic); 0.2 per pop.
You can have either Superhuman civic or Paradise civic, that allows you to create Park Arcologies.

BUILDINGS UNHEALTH (<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>)
Matter Decompiler - THIS ONE IS HIGH-TECH; 0.1 per pop.
Shaman Cathedral <Custom_religions module> - No health bonus per pop. City health instead. (Requires Shaman state religion)
Druid Cathedral <Custom_religions module> - No health bonus per pop. City health instead. (Requires Druid state religion)

Since you can have either Shaman (Spirit Alliance), Druid (Nature Alliance) or Buddhism (Kotoku-in WW), then shaman/druid buildings could have their city health, and Kotoku-in could have Global health modifier to be competitive with shamanism/druidism.

Just making sure, that its in queue somewhere, but not forgotten and ignored.
I dislike suspension of disbelief breakers like Power(George/Fusion), Safety(Orbital) did before their globals were removed.
Same with meltdowns, though on nuclear reactors they are fine, also unconditional resource removers.

 

[Mag Co]

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/c2c-tips-and-tricks.429387/page-14

Protip:
Go build shaman/druid "cathedrals" - they block all unhealth from buildings including property pseudobuildings

Shaman Cathedral <Custom_religions module> - No health bonus per pop. City health instead. (Requires Shaman state religion)
Druid Cathedral <Custom_religions module> - No health bonus per pop. City health instead. (Requires Druid state religion).

Holy Heavens.
That is overpowered. You can save thousands of gold in pollution and disease control units with that.

Mind-Control Center - THIS ONE IS HIGH-TECH; 0.5 per pop - this is far future, pretty extreme building and it requires Mind Control (Rule) civic.
Park Arcology - THIS ONE IS HIGH-TECH; 0.2 per pop. It requires civic - Paradise (Welfare)
Body Exchange Clinic - THIS ONE IS HIGH-TECH; 0.1 per pop.
Following civics can do this too: Superhuman (Welfare) (late era civic); 0.2 per pop.
You can have either Superhuman civic or Paradise civic, that allows you to create Park Arcologies.
Matter Decompiler - THIS ONE IS HIGH-TECH; 0.1 per pop.

Pepper oppinion on these ones maybe useful as he is working in later eras and space traveling.

 

[raxo2222]

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/c2c-tips-and-tricks.429387/page-14


Holy Heavens.
That is overpowered. You can save thousands of gold in pollution and disease control units with that.


Pepper oppinion on these ones maybe useful as he is working in later eras and space traveling.

That is why I wanted their removals/replacement - my suspension of disbelief pulls Chernobyl on these things especially non-hitech things - as in how its possible, that ticks, rape, timeline tampering, toxic hydrosphere and blackened skies don't ruin health/mood of citizens, when you build certain buildings.
Hi tech buildings have some merit though, but still shouldn't be 100% efficient.

 

[raxo2222]

Now that V38 is released, will be these changes applied?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Now that V38 is released, will be these changes applied?

So long as DH changes his mind on vetoing them. That seems unlikely.

 

[raxo2222]

@Dancing Hoskuld
What do you think about these changes, if we bring back resource removal by Mormon buildings in this way:

Three Effects: Mormon resource ban buildings.
They would ban resources as originally Mormon buildings did.
Their spawn conditions would be:
Mormon religion as state religion and certain religious civics - those permitting state religion for example.
Each of them would need one of Mormon buildings.
Effect: Mormon Tobacco ban - needs Mormon Cathedral - LDS Temple.
Effect: Mormon Coffee ban - needs Mormon Monastery - LDS Missionary Training Centre.
Effect: Mormon Tea ban - needs Mormon Shrine - same name as in building definition.

That is resource removals would be done trough effect buildings, and their spawning requires state religion and one of more strict civics (Theocracy/Divine Rule or one of religious civics like Intolerant or State Church).

DH said something like that just in much simpler form much earlier on thread of modmod that removed bonus removals by Mormon buildings.

Most mods ban Cattle if you have Hindi in the city, so even if 1% of the people are Hindu no one can have cattle but they don't also change the yield from the cattle resource so people do get to eat cattle. Very strange.

The Mormon religion was set up in consultation with a Mormon interested in us getting it right. The one in game is the first cut. There is one in the My_Mods (Unloaded) folder which is a work in progress. Unfortunately he has disappeared and it is not finished. It takes a different approach and rather than banning goods it improves the returns from others.

The problem is still that it only takes the religion to exist in the city for this to take affect. Both the banning and positives could be done based on State Religion using auto build buildings but no one has done the work.

Pepper was bit too quick with removal of Mormon bonus removals - he did it before DH managed to respond.
I guess it would be done before V38 release if I looked to that modmod thread earlier

 

[Septentrion]

Pepper was bit too quick with removal of Mormon bonus removals - he did it before DH managed to respond.

I don't see how it's too quick when no other religion has been subjected to the same bans. The mormon diet isn't that special compared to other religions. A Jainist theocracy would be a nightmare to implement under the same standards.

Effect: Mormon Tea ban - needs Mormon Shrine.

Are we keeping the shrine based ban?