Unhealth/unhappiness removing wonders/buildings/civics and properties.

[Thunderbrd]

It's not mine to argue on this one.

However, you may not know this but I'm a marketer by trade. And one of the methods I use to get through to someone is ultimate persistence. I basically keep contacting and asking if they are ready to do business until they say yes or demand I never check back. I feel there's an essence of that in your approach here, like it's completely unacceptable that there was previous disagreement so you keep bringing up the subject until you've worn out the opposition's will to resist or disagree any further.

I'm not sure if @Dancing Hoskuld has seen this and he's at that point where he no longer feels its worth arguing about or if he just hasn't seen it, but if I'm guessing, he's probably just got his hands up feeling like 'well, they'll either respect my wishes or they won't and then I'll have my own choices to make about how to respond or try to accept it.' I've asked him on numerous occasions to explain how he can justify it being OK for some of these buildings to have such a powerful impact and aside from some of them being 'justified by being wonders' I haven't gotten much in response, more often I've been ignored.

I agree with you that the tag usages you're eliminating here are flat out too strong to be in any way realistic at all. Wonder or no. However, I have the utmost respect for DH and these elements were already in place when I got here so I don't feel right overriding them. Not unless I get an agreement from him that we can start a project along these lines and the only way I felt I was going to do that was to start adjusting other buildings to similar 'per population' applications, including some counterbalances like increasing amounts of per-population unhelath/unhappy per era (if needed) or on other sources of unhealth/unhappiness.

However, just going on what you have adjusted, there's a few places where the design choices you're making aren't exactly how I'd go about it for this kind of immediate evolution to these buildings - close but I'd just tweak it a little... Here's what I see:

Disneyland - should probably not adjust just the happy per pop in the city its in but to all cities in the nation - and if possible a smaller amount to all cities with open trade, though I don't think we could do that without some coding. Also in the future, spreading some of the primary culture of the city it is in to all cities with open trading to the owning nation would be a great feature for the Ideas project to include. The mouse is considered one of the ultimate symbols of US culture worldwide. So having it spread an effect building, for now, to all cities in the nation with a touch of happy per population would be IMO the way to go with this building.

Ark of the Covenant

We've got a few of these and we really need to somehow get down to one. I wish we could link the happiness only to cities that are primarily under Judaism and an inverse effect to those that are not.

And the Shaman and Druid Cathedrals are far too nerfed in this. They should at least be giving a per population effect rather than a flat adjustment. It would be nice to at least give homage to the super power effect they've had and there's a reason they have it - to help these otherwise kinda indirectly useful religions a strong impact to those that develop them out in their cities to balance against other religions.

All that said, @Dancing Hoskuld, is your silence finally an acceptance of how hard it is for many players to maintain the sense of suspension of disbelief when they encounter such imbalancing features as the use of the no unhealth/ no unhappy from population or buildings tags? Or are you just tired of fighting for it? Or did you just not see this thread comment from Raxxo?

 

[raxo2222]

Well DH vetoed this one because of removal of resource bans from Mormon buildings.
You can readjust some buildings, if you want.

Also I had this small suggestion to reimplement resource bans trough effect buildings triggerable in certain conditions, one that Mormon must be state religion.
It was to undo DH's veto.
-----------------------------------
Three Effects: Mormon resource ban buildings.
They would ban resources as originally Mormon buildings did.
Their spawn conditions would be:
Mormon religion as state religion and certain religious civics - those permitting state religion for example, may be Divine right or Theocracy too.
Each of them would need one of Mormon buildings.
Effect: Mormon Tobacco ban - needs Mormon Cathedral - LDS Temple.
Effect: Mormon Coffee ban - needs Mormon Monastery - LDS Missionary Training Centre.
Effect: Mormon Tea ban - needs Mormon Shrine - same name as in building definition.

I'm not sure how to implement this one.
That is what I have to do to make effect pseudobuilding.
--------------------------------------

This suggestion was caused mainly by clash between unhappiness/unhealth from property and pest pseudobuildings, and buildings that blocked all unhappiness or unhealthiness from buildings.
Basically it was like buildings with unhappiness/unhealthiness blocking tag were made by aliens, that are so advanced, that Galactic era is prehistory for them.
In this mod there could be plenty of them though


-----------------
Disneyland could create Disneyland - Effect building, that appears in all cities meeting certain conditions.
This effect building would have per pop tag.

I think Kotoku -Buddhist WW could get same treatment as Ark of Covenant.
For now it has flat global health of 2.

As for Shaman/Druid maybe 0.05 health per pop would be nice?
Those blocked unhealth from buildings.
Also those buildings have same power as Buddhist WW when comes to health, just that this WW has global health tag.

I think futuristic buildings - Matter Decompiler, Park Arcology (needs certian civic) and Body Exchange Clinic could have higher health per pop - currently I set them to conservative values of 0.1 (0.2 for civic depedant one) buildings.

I tagged DH and Pepper day before committing changes.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

All that said, @Dancing Hoskuld, is your silence finally an acceptance of how hard it is for many players to maintain the sense of suspension of disbelief when they encounter such imbalancing features as the use of the no unhealth/ no unhappy from population or buildings tags? Or are you just tired of fighting for it? Or did you just not see this thread comment from Raxxo?

My brother's granddaughter had an accident. She is fine and hopes to be back at work before her 30th birthday later this year. We have been taking turns keeping her company over the internet and since I am the only one retired with internet access most of my time has been spent doing that. She likes "run and gun" games which I hate. Now that she is we well enough to be doing phisio I am getting a bit more free time.

I am working on changes to the religions but there are a number of things that I need to do with them before I can do that work. Getting completely modular is the first priority because that has been asked for "for ever". Doing "knee jerk" fixes just makes it more difficult to get things right.

On the wonders - why are you removing all happiness from the Theater of Dionysus? It goes obsolete! I am sure some of the others also obsolete.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Disneyland could create Disneyland - Effect building, that appears in all cities meeting certain conditions.
This effect building would have per pop tag.

This was exactly what I was suggesting.

As for Shaman/Druid maybe 0.05 health per pop would be nice?
Those blocked unhealth from buildings.

That's basically exactly what I was suggesting there too.

Also those buildings have same power as Buddhist WW when comes to health, just that this WW has global health tag.

I'm not as concerned about the religious ones so I think its fine what you're proposing, IMO.

I think futuristic buildings - Matter Decompiler, Park Arcology (needs certian civic) and Body Exchange Clinic could have higher health per pop - currently I set them to conservative values of 0.1 (0.2 for civic depedant one) buildings.

Agreed.

On the wonders - why are you removing all happiness from the Theater of Dionysus? It goes obsolete! I am sure some of the others also obsolete.

It's not removing all the happiness. Per population happiness is capable of adding up to quite a lot still.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It's not removing all the happiness. Per population happiness is capable of adding up to quite a lot still.

So you take an OK World Wonder and make it a meh national level wonder just because you don't like the tag?

 

[Thunderbrd]

So you take an OK World Wonder and make it a meh national level wonder just because you don't like the tag?

It's not that. It's not really good game play to allow a city to be completely immune to unhealth/unhappiness. And if you take away the whole amount of unhealth/unhappiness coming from buildings, you're effectively making the city completely immune Since I would really like to see unhealth be a strong factor if you let disease get out of hand and thus be capable of being the cause of death(mortality rate) in cities suffering severely, I would like to not have the game allowing a city to completely ignore all disease sourced unhealth (remember that unhealth from disease comes from buildings). Crime - much the same way in regards to happiness, so to say that the Theater of Dionysus is capable of keeping people from ever feeling upset enough to mount a personal rebellion (aka not work due to unhappiness) is in my view far too severe.

That said, .2 happiness per population would mean +6 happiness at a mere 30 population and +20 happiness for a 100 population city. That's pretty extremely powerful without being obscenely so by granting the ability to ignore all the reasons the city may be made to be unhappy in the first place.

Given that the Theater gets obsoleted, however, it does make sense that for a small period of time, it can have that powerful an effect, but I might question the application where unhealth would be concerned. Imagine that one city that survives any damage from an ongoing case of the plague because of a Druid Cathedral being in place.

 

[raxo2222]

I have screenshots of all buildings, that made cities invulnerable to happiness/health effects of school shootings or major global warming pseudobuildings (example property things)
But I changed that - you shouldn't be able to block property effects directly.

Only Theater of Dionysus obsoletes directly.
Others might be force-obsoleted by having their building requirements go obsolete.

Spoiler :

Disneyland - Effect will have 0.1 per pop.
Druid and Shaman building will get 0.05 per pop.
Buddhist WW will have 0.05 per pop - not sure how this would work with fully modular religions anyway.
Matter Decompiler and Body Exchange clinic will get 0.25 per pop.
Park Arcology needs civic, but it will get 0.25 per pop anyway.

Should I keep building effect text in Buildings_CIV4GameText file?
I had to modify four files to make Disneyland effect
Special buildings to add this effect, Vokayra module file to adjust continent/global happiness as I added freebuilding tag spawning Disneyland effect everywhere, building game text file as I added some text and building class info tied to disneyland effect.

Spoiler :

I untied Disneyland Effect from tech, as it is spawned by Disneyland anyway, and I don't know how to make new icons, so this building effect will have golden star icon as it uses same art def as Disneyland.

 

[raxo2222]

My brother's granddaughter had an accident. She is fine and hopes to be back at work before her 30th birthday later this year. We have been taking turns keeping her company over the internet and since I am the only one retired with internet access most of my time has been spent doing that. She likes "run and gun" games which I hate. Now that she is we well enough to be doing phisio I am getting a bit more free time.

I am working on changes to the religions but there are a number of things that I need to do with them before I can do that work. Getting completely modular is the first priority because that has been asked for "for ever". Doing "knee jerk" fixes just makes it more difficult to get things right.

Ah, so that's why you didn't reply to this one before I committed things after one day wait.

I figured out how to make effect type buildings, so I can bring Mormon resource bans trough effect buildings if you want.
State religion + one of harsher religious civics would be one requirement.
Theocracy and Divine rule (civics in different categories) are options too.
Tobacco ban was tried to LDS Temple, Coffee ban - LDS Missionary Training Temple and Tea ban - Mormon Shrine (This one is Holy City World Wonder)

But not sure how that would interact with fully modular religions.
That is building class has default building, that would be in special buildings.
But those special buildings would require Mormon as state religion (and Mormon buildings too), but if Mormon was turned off, then errors could pop.

For example this is what I did to Disneyland, as Thunderbrd wanted.
CIV4BuildingClassInfos:

        <BuildingClassInfo>
            <Type>BUILDINGCLASS_DISNEYLAND_EFFECT</Type>
            <Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_DISNEYLAND_EFFECT</Description>
            <iMaxGlobalInstances>-1</iMaxGlobalInstances>
            <iMaxTeamInstances>-1</iMaxTeamInstances>
            <iMaxPlayerInstances>-1</iMaxPlayerInstances>
            <DefaultBuilding>BUILDING_DISNEYLAND_EFFECT</DefaultBuilding>
        </BuildingClassInfo>

SpecialBuildings_CIV4BuildingInfos:

<BuildingInfo>
           <!-- Disneyland - Effect -->
           <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_DISNEYLAND_EFFECT</BuildingClass>
           <Type>BUILDING_DISNEYLAND_EFFECT</Type>
           <Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_DISNEYLAND_EFFECT</Description>
           <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_DISNEYLAND_EFFECT_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
           <Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_DISNEYLAND_EFFECT_STRATEGY</Strategy>
           <Advisor>ADVISOR_CULTURE</Advisor>
           <!-- Graphical and interface -->
           <ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_DISNEYLAND</ArtDefineTag>
           <iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>
           <fVisibilityPriority>10000</fVisibilityPriority>
           <!-- Prerequisites -->
           <MapCategoryTypes>
               <MapCategoryType>MAPCATEGORY_EARTH</MapCategoryType>
           </MapCategoryTypes>
           <!-- <PrereqTech>TECH_ANIMATION</PrereqTech> -->
           <!-- Construction cost -->
           <iCost>-1</iCost>
           <!-- Special Health and Happiness  modifiers -->
           <iHappinessPercentPerPopulation>10</iHappinessPercentPerPopulation>
           <!-- Special properties -->
           <bNukeImmune>1</bNukeImmune>
           <iAsset>10</iAsset>
       </BuildingInfo>

Vokayra module VokaryaWonders_CIV4BuildingInfos:

        <BuildingInfo>
            <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_DISNEYLAND</BuildingClass>
            <Type>BUILDING_DISNEYLAND</Type>
            <Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_DISNEYLAND</Description>
            <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_DISNEYLAND_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
            <Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_DISNEYLAND_STRATEGY</Strategy>
            <Advisor>ADVISOR_CULTURE</Advisor>
            <ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_DISNEYLAND</ArtDefineTag>
            <MovieDefineTag>ART_DEF_MOVIE_DISNEYLAND</MovieDefineTag>
            <PrereqTech>TECH_ANIMATION</PrereqTech>
            <TechTypes>
                <PrereqTech>TECH_CIVIL_ENGINEERING</PrereqTech>
            </TechTypes>
            <PrereqBonuses>
                <BonusType>BONUS_CEMENT</BonusType>
            </PrereqBonuses>
            <GreatPeopleUnitClass>UNITCLASS_ARTIST</GreatPeopleUnitClass>
            <iGreatPeopleRateChange>2</iGreatPeopleRateChange>      
            <bNukeImmune>1</bNukeImmune>
            <iCost>5220</iCost>
            <iHurryCostModifier>100</iHurryCostModifier>
            <iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>
            <iConquestProb>100</iConquestProb>
            <iHappinessPercentPerPopulation>20</iHappinessPercentPerPopulation>
            <iAreaHappiness>1</iAreaHappiness>
            <iGlobalHappiness>1</iGlobalHappiness>
            <FreeBuilding>BUILDINGCLASS_DISNEYLAND_EFFECT</FreeBuilding>
            <iAsset>10</iAsset>
            <fVisibilityPriority>1</fVisibilityPriority>
            <MapCategoryTypes>
                <MapCategoryType>MAPCATEGORY_EARTH</MapCategoryType>
            </MapCategoryTypes>
            <ObsoleteSafeCommerceChanges>
                <iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
                <iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
                <iCommerce>15</iCommerce>
            </ObsoleteSafeCommerceChanges>
            <CommerceChangeDoubleTimes>
                <iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
                <iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
                <iCommerce>1000</iCommerce>
            </CommerceChangeDoubleTimes>
            <CommerceModifiers>
                <iCommerce>10</iCommerce>
            </CommerceModifiers>
            <iPrereqPopulation>13</iPrereqPopulation>
            <bPrereqPower>1</bPrereqPower>
        </BuildingInfo>

Here I'm using free building tag to get thing in all cities. <FreeBuilding>BUILDINGCLASS_DISNEYLAND_EFFECT</FreeBuilding>
Basically I'm making Disneyland add 0.1 per pop in all cities.

I spotted error in Disneyland: Effect itself shouldn't exist in city with Disneyland as happiness from effect is adding to happiness from Disneyland itself.

I added this tag to Disneyland WW.

           <PrereqNotBuildingClasses>
               <PrereqNotBuildingClass>
                   <BuildingClassMustNotHave>BUILDINGCLASS_DISNEYLAND_EFFECT</BuildingClassMustNotHave>
                   <bPrereqNot>1</bPrereqNot>
               </PrereqNotBuildingClass>
           </PrereqNotBuildingClasses>

Other option would be to change Disneyland per pop happiness to 0.1.

I could do that in Disneyland Effect, but then I would to use Disneyland class and this one may be used by multiple buildings.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There is already a version of the Mormon religion underway that removes the bans and basically improves the whole thing. Why not look at that and get it working? Even if we can only get the buildings working as in the design we will be further ahead! It is in the unloaded version of My_Mods folder.

 

[raxo2222]

There is already a version of the Mormon religion underway that removes the bans and basically improves the whole thing. Why not look at that and get it working? Even if we can only get the buildings working as in the design we will be further ahead! It is in the unloaded version of My_Mods folder.

Looks very unique.
A lot of commerce changes are there.

-------------------------------------
Game loaded normally when I swapped Mormon folders.
But some images didn't load.
Here is what it looks:

Spoiler :

Two buildings have different cultural output and one building has different gold output depending on resource presence.
x% from anything is summed with global city x% output.
If city has 100% boost to gold, and building X has 1% gold boost with Y resource, then in presence of Y resource city will have 101% boost to base gold.

It doesn't matter from where % modifier came.
Trait, civic, resource, building, property pseudobuilding, they all are absolutely equal.
Those adjust % boost of base productivity.

-5% of gold from tea is indifferent from -5% of gold from idiocracy pseudobuilding and it is indistinguishable from -5% gold, that you get from barbarian trait (I'm guessing those sources).

Mormon temple ups culture boost by 50% and with certain resources it can improve culture boost by additional 14% if all resources are present.

Basically this one needs fixing images, cleaning redundancies from Mormon tech, replacing no unhealth from population with per pop health, some correction to rev indexes (or removing them altogether), and recosting buildings.
There may be few tag issues.

Events should wait: If Mormon gets events then all other religions should get events too.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Thanks Rax!

 

[raxo2222]

Thanks Rax!

This Mormon version will be good to go after fixing some things in buildings.
These culture/gold yields aren't as aggressive as I thought.
I would need save just before researching Mormon religion, so I can see how this one version works in action.
It loads without errors.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Events should wait: If Mormon gets events then all other religions should get events too.

Some already do

 

[raxo2222]

I see, that new Mormon tech requires Archeology and Representative Democracy.

Either tech needs to be reconnected with Agricultural Engineering or moved to first column to have direct arrow (OR) connection with Industrial Lifestyle (Industrial Lifestyle needs Representative Democracy among other techs).

Archeology was OR requirement, I changed it to AND requirement, so arrow won't mess tech tree.

Bishop Storehouse has obsoletion set way too early.
It is obsoleted by Agricultural Engineering, and its prereq (Food Preservation) unlocks this building. Will change obsoletion to Ecological Engineering, same as building requiring it - Welfare Square.
LDS Missionary Center NW has unlock tech set way too early (its unlocked by Divination - Ancient tech), this tech doesn't unlock anything religious. I'll set tech to Meditation as it is in Monastery type buildings.
Also there is Mormon Missionary Training Center NW....

I reused buttons for Mormon buildings, that already existed.
Rest of them would need Mormon symbol and I'm not sure what about redundant Mormon training centre (one without Mormon symbol and silver star).
Temple Square/Welfare Square would need golden star too.

Spoiler :

Something wrong is with units, as they give me error when opening them in pedia.

Temple Square and Mormon (not LDS) Training Center NW isn't tied to any tech.
So I'm unsure what its cost would be.
Buildings are working, just that needs graphical touch on buttons.

Units are working now, there were few simple mistakes just like in buildings.
Toffer pedia is extremely fast, so you can easily check stuff.

Spoiler :

I zipped Events to separate ZIP for now.

I'm doing Settler/Del/Blitz/Industrial start test to see how Mormon things work.
Here is save and fixed new version of Mormon religion (didn't test it in action yet).

I got little gem named Great Statesman
He was only Great Person without golden age ability, so I fixed and committed that.

Two Mormon promotions have pink icons.
Empire still too underdeveloped to produce Mormon things
Keeping Mormon related art separate would bee good idea....
Unless those promotions never got their art.

For now I can replace
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Promotions/Endowment.dds</Button>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Promotions/Priesthood.dds</Button>
with something else.
Or someone could do buttons for those two promotions.
Still I don't have books needed to build Mormon things

Spoiler :

 

[raxo2222]

@Dancing Hoskuld Mormon buildings and units works 100%.

There is needed art for two promotion (Priesthood and Endowment) buttons and 5 different Mormon building buttons:
Temple Square WW, Mormon Missionary Training Center NW, Bishop's Storehouse, Welfare Square WW and Seminary (Mormon).

For now these changes are placed back in My Mods (Unloaded) folder, as you probably will want to work on events - religion itself works.
Also we are nearing release.

I moved events to .rar archive, this can be opened in Winrar.

Changes are committed, but they are safely kept in My Mods (Unloaded) folder.
I also removed unused two space units and cold fusion obsoleteing things.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@Raxo: Please delay any further changes like these. These I find more development (even if it's just wrapping up a development) rather than bug fixes. During the kind of freeze we're in, we should not be working any development at the moment. I'm not asking you to pull the changes but you now have need for buttons and we aren't in a position to provide them so you'll have to do some kind of patch job where you refer to other button graphics already in use for now. Not really optimal for a release. And if uncaught bugs are there for the release it will be a tremendous frustration for all of us, the players above all.

Just please keep that in mind. I still need to try to run SO's save and see if I can catch that bug before I will be confident to announce preparedness is there for the release. So we do have a little time still to see if this causes any trouble BUT we are rapidly running out of that time for playtesting to detect issues.

 

[raxo2222]

@Raxo: Please delay any further changes like these. These I find more development (even if it's just wrapping up a development) rather than bug fixes. During the kind of freeze we're in, we should not be working any development at the moment. I'm not asking you to pull the changes but you now have need for buttons and we aren't in a position to provide them so you'll have to do some kind of patch job where you refer to other button graphics already in use for now. Not really optimal for a release. And if uncaught bugs are there for the release it will be a tremendous frustration for all of us, the players above all.

Just please keep that in mind. I still need to try to run SO's save and see if I can catch that bug before I will be confident to announce preparedness is there for the release. So we do have a little time still to see if this causes any trouble BUT we are rapidly running out of that time for playtesting to detect issues.

I know, this is why I put back original Mormon religion in Custom Religions on commit, and my changes to other Mormon version are in My Mods (Unloaded) folder.
Basically Mormon religion in gameplay is untouched, and my update is not visible to gameplay, as I put it in My Mods (Unloaded) folder, where it was originally.

I guess I forgot to mention that in SVN changelog.

 

[raxo2222]

@Dancing Hoskuld what do you think about fixes of other version of Mormon religion?
Currently it is in My Mods (Unloaded), that is it isn't in actual gameplay, as buildings are missing star/Mormon icons, and Mormon promotions doesn't have icons.
Also why there are two missionary center buildings?
Both of them are NW, one starts with LDS and other starts with Mormon in their name.
They have different things though.

By the way this Disneyland effect I created to cause nationwide per pop happiness uses same icon as Disneyland WW, this means it has golden star.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Sorry, I had to go back to the hospital. I am still sleeping 2 out of every 3 hours durring the day and 12 hours at night. I am much better, just tired all the time.