Vladimir Lenin

[Lone Wolf]

Yes. Were some of them unnecessary, like those horrid deportations? Absolutely. But that is the way that any and every nation has and would react when placed in such a dire situation as that. Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.

Firstly, they weren't merely unnecessary, they were harmful, plain and simple. I don't remember any "a nation engages in acts of ethnic deportation in times of serious threat" scenario, with the exception of Roosevelt's internation of Japanese, and everyone agrees that it was a really dicky thing to do that didn't help the USA in any way.

 

[Masada]

There must be something in Ekaterinburg's water, they breed em' sensible there.

 

[Dachs]

There must be something in Ekaterinburg's water, they breed em' sensible there.

Like the guys who shot up the Tsar and his family amirite

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I should clarify my point, since I obviously missed something.

I don't think the vast majority (95%) of the deportations were necessary. I realize I did not phrase my last post that way.

As for defending Stalin, anyone paying attention to my record will note that I have criticized him, and very heavily, for his deportations, purges and executions of old party members (including many of the Founding Fathers of the USSR!), and forced collectivization. I do not like him personally, either. So stop trying to characterize me as some blind Stalinist Apologist gobbling up every snippet of pseudo-information from Pravda.

 

[say1988]

Lenin and Stalin were not good people, plain and simple. That does not have any bearing on their treatment relative to what they deserve.

At the same time I don't believe they deserve near the reputation they have in the West. Nearly a century of propaganda (from both sides) means most people cannot have a neutral view of these people. I am the first to say my view is tainted somewhat, but I hope to minimize the effects.

Lenin did many awful things, but remember most of his rule was during a revolution and civil warm quite exceptional circumstances and many actions could reasonably be viewed as necessary. He did push for many good initiatives and equality, some of which were impossible to implement at the time due to economic problems and the civil war.

And the actions Stalin and other Soviet leaders cannot be placed on Lenin's hands, especially when he opposed Stalin. It would be interesting to see what Lenin would have done it he had survived and stayed in power.

 

[Lone Wolf]

executions of old party members (including many of the Founding Fathers of the USSR!)

Ironically, some of the non-communist Russian Stalinists admire him for that very reason.

I don't think the vast majority (95%) of the deportations were necessary.

I never claimed you thought that. "Unnecessary" just sounds like a too soft word (Oh, you baked that cookie specially for me? Thanks, but it wasn't really necessary, you know...).

Vsyeva Kharosheva.
is that your name, the name of someone you lifted this from, or something else entirely?

It's (well, vsyevo khoroshevo to be more exact, with the second o usually pronounced like a sound between o and a) means "all the best" in Russian.

The thought of Cheezy's name being Vsyeva Kharosheva is funny, mainly because it sounds like a weird female name.

 

[RedRalph]

Hey, to us Nikita is a girl's name

 

[Lone Wolf]

It's the "surname" Kharosheva that puts it firmly into female territory.

 

[RedRalph]

It's the "surname" Kharosheva that puts it firmly into female territory.

Is that some variant of Khrushchev?

 

[Lone Wolf]

Is that some variant of Khrushchev?

No. A Russian hardly would have such an association.

 

[Plotinus]

I'm still puzzled by the implication of the OP and some other posters that Lenin is, by default, assumed to be a wicked dictator like Stalin, and it's somehow revisionist or otherwise contrary to accepted wisdom to think that he might have been not so bad. I don't know whether Lenin was good, bad, or indifferent, but I've never thought that he has a commonplace reputation akin to that of Stalin's or heard his name used as an example of evil dictators. He's just regarded as a historical figure like most others - isn't he? Is it different in America or something?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

He has a borderline-Stalinist rap in the US, I would say. He started the whole commie thing after all . . . Now that I think about it, I don't know where, specifically I have heard this attitude, my history books didn't have it, but a lot of people do.

 

[RedRalph]

In the last few years (ten or so), I've noticed there has been a concerted effort by historians, journalists etc to try and portray the USSR as the equivalent or worse than Nazi Germany. I don't know if its to do with more input from Eastern Europe, Russia's resurgence, the Bush years or what but it wouldn't surprise me if we soon see books documenting how Nikita Khrushchev was actually Satan's son.

I honestly don't know why it is Plotonius, but I know its hasn't really affected the mindset of the general public, most people know little about Lenin but don't consider him to the as evil as some people here do; and most people still consider Hitler the personification of evil, despite the efforts of many revisionists.

 

[Quackers]

Lenin was a brutal blood thirsty dictator. When I was a leftist I thought "AHH LENIN WHAT IF HE HAD LIVED ON WE WOULD OF GOTTEN THAT PARADISE". Which is of couse is rubbish as Communism is self-destructive and always fails. When i studied Lenin in my History course he promised "peace, bread and land". But what did we get? The bloodiest war in Europe even more so than WW1. Why is this? The Red army went around to villages demanded resources and the villagers were forced to be Bolshevik if they weren't they were annihilated.

He established the secret police "CHEKA" whose first leader Felix Dzerzinsky was sooo brutal that when the SU collapsed his stature was the first one down by the people. Which arrested people on bogus counter-revolutionary charges than executed with no trial.

Lenin said this: "We did not hesitate to shoot thousands of people, and we shall not hesitate, and we shall save the country."

Any so called "revision" of Lenin is going always to be false and initiated by REDS the reason he has a bad reputation was because he was a brutal autocrat - the Red-Tsars are far worse than the other White-Tsars.

 

[luiz]

I'm still puzzled by the implication of the OP and some other posters that Lenin is, by default, assumed to be a wicked dictator like Stalin, and it's somehow revisionist or otherwise contrary to accepted wisdom to think that he might have been not so bad. I don't know whether Lenin was good, bad, or indifferent, but I've never thought that he has a commonplace reputation akin to that of Stalin's or heard his name used as an example of evil dictators. He's just regarded as a historical figure like most others - isn't he? Is it different in America or something?

Lenin ruled in the 20th Century. We traditionally don't let 20th Century rulers get away with that "historical figure" excuse; we rather hold them to modern standards. There are documents with Lenin's signature where he orders indiscriminate executions, like for instance the public hanging of 100 kulaks on 11 August 1918. By 1921 there were 70,000 people in labor camps in Russia. He also constantly defended the discretionary powers given to the Cheka, including the application of the death penalty, and defeated attempts of peoploe trying to curb its excesses. There are also letters where Lenin instigates his followers to execute members of the clergy and the bourgeouisie.

In other words, Lenin was evil. A wicked dictator just like Stalin, albeit one with less power to put his monstrous desires forward.

 

[ParkCungHee]

I don't know whether Lenin was good, bad, or indifferent, but I've never thought that he has a commonplace reputation akin to that of Stalin's or heard his name used as an example of evil dictators. He's just regarded as a historical figure like most others - isn't he? Is it different in America or something?

Actually, he largely is held to what you describe in America schools, which is why he gets people's blood pressure up. It's the very fact that he's treated as comfortably "historical" in textbooks, and then you read a little more and you find out these things.

 

[say1988]

Lenin seems to be largely ignored in North America in favour of Stalin.

Most of what I see are brief mentions, summing him up as evil, communist, and the precursor to Stalin.

 

[Lord Baal]

I'm still puzzled by the implication of the OP and some other posters that Lenin is, by default, assumed to be a wicked dictator like Stalin, and it's somehow revisionist or otherwise contrary to accepted wisdom to think that he might have been not so bad. I don't know whether Lenin was good, bad, or indifferent, but I've never thought that he has a commonplace reputation akin to that of Stalin's or heard his name used as an example of evil dictators. He's just regarded as a historical figure like most others - isn't he? Is it different in America or something?

Over here he's little-known. He's seen more as the guy that started the Russian Revolution, but died before much could happen. He's completely overlooked in favour of Stalin.

@Lone Wolf: Thanks, Cheezy PMed me to let me know what it meant. I too thought it sounded like a woman's name. The 'a' at the end of the surname is something I see in Russian women's names a lot.

 

[Dachs]

Over here he's little-known. He's seen more as the guy that started the Russian Revolution, but died before much could happen. He's completely overlooked in favour of Stalin.

Up through high school here, bar the AP, that's usually how he gets presented as well. I doubt you could indicate a general opinion of American history teachers on the guy, it's been fairly mixed as far as I've experienced. My inclination is that students tend to emphasize that teachers tend to have the opposite opinion from their own on a given subject to go along with their worldview of a poor American schooling system and their own transcendence of that system.

 

[red_elk]

Hey, to us Nikita is a girl's name

To you, even Valery is a girl's name