[RD] War in Gaza News: Pas de Deux

Voidwalkin said:
Actual genocide?

The use of the word "actual" is noteworthy. Genocide, as it is actually understood, would mean annihilating a people. As this has clearly not occurred, instead some ICJ, super Transatlanticist definition must be being applied. Lacking and it should not be expected to have much effect, rhetorically.

I'm curious: would you advocate the British government make a full fledged effort to militarily occupy Israel?
Click to expand...
Then the holocaust wasn't a genocide either; jewish people still exist.
In the same sense, the holocaust wasn't a holocaust (as 'holo' implies complete; likewise some were left so it was incomplete).
 
Voidwalkin said:
Actual genocide?

The use of the word "actual" is noteworthy. Genocide, as it is actually understood, would mean annihilating a people. As this has clearly not occurred, instead some ICJ, super Transatlanticist definition must be being applied. Lacking and it should not be expected to have much effect, rhetorically.

I'm curious: would you advocate the British government make a full fledged effort to militarily occupy Israel?
Click to expand...

Thats really slimy, what you're doing here. A quibble over definitions, a sneer at crimes against humanity as being some kind of elitist dabbling unworthy of other concern, and then an extremely stupid question.

Nonetheless, I shall try to answer it: In the fantasy scenario that Britain could deploy, had the total capability, had the professionalism and expectation that peacekeeping efforts could be successful, had exhausted all other reasonable diplomatic avenues that at present it has not even started down, and where Israel's nuclear deterrent was magically gone, yes. There may be a great many other qualifications or conditions possible.

Go on then. What was the point of the question? What is revealed?
 
Kyriakos said:
Then the holocaust wasn't a genocide either; jewish people still exist.
In the same sense, the holocaust wasn't a holocaust (as 'holo' implies complete; likewise some were left so it was incomplete).
Click to expand...
Senethro said:
Thats really slimy, what you're doing here. A quibble over definitions, a sneer at crimes against humanity as being some kind of elitist dabbling unworthy of other concern, and then an extremely stupid question
Click to expand...
The numbers don't line up here, fellas. It's just that simple.
Senethro said:
Go on then. What was the point of the question? What is revealed?
Click to expand...
Claims of genocide are rhetorical.
 
Moderator Action: Enough with the nonsense.
 
Voidwalkin said:
The numbers don't line up here, fellas. It's just that simple.
Click to expand...

You set the criterion quantity that define what constitute a genocide which is "zero", Kyrikaos using a simple absurdum take that criterion and apply it to the Jewish holocaust, and it failed to be defined as genocide, in fact using your standard the word genocide is as real as a unicorn, Kyr easily demonstrate your double standard in a way that even a monkey may understand, yet your answer is, "There's not enough dead babies yet bro, it's that simple".

[snip]

Voidwalkin said:
Claims of genocide are rhetorical.
Click to expand...

Because that's not your genocide hence it's rhetorical,[snip] Moderator Action: Inappropriate remark snipped. Birdjaguar.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Israel warns it will stop aid yacht heading for Gaza​

Israel has warned its military will "take whatever measures are necessary" to prevent a boat carrying pro-Palestinian activists and humanitarian aid reaching Gaza.

The Madleen yacht is 160 nautical miles from the Gaza Strip and is attempting to challenge Israel's naval blockade of the territory.

Defence Minister Israel Katz said the 12-strong crew, which includes climate protester Greta Thunberg, should turn back and that Israel will act against any attempt to breach the blockade.

The Freedom Flotilla Coalition (FFC) said the vessel, which departed Sicily on Friday, was carrying humanitarian aid and was "prepared for the possibility of an Israeli attack".

Katz said the blockade's purpose was to "prevent the transfer of weapons to Hamas" and was essential to Israel's security as it seeks to destroy the Palestinian armed group Hamas.

He warned in a post on X on Sunday: "I have instructed the IDF [Israel Defense Forces] to act to prevent the 'Madeleine' [sic] hate flotilla from reaching the shores of Gaza - and to take whatever measures are necessary to that end."

Addressing the crew directly, he added: "To the antisemitic Greta and her fellow Hamas propaganda spokespeople, I say clearly: You should turn back - because you will not reach Gaza.

"Israel will act against any attempt to break the blockade or assist terrorist organizations – at sea, in the air, and on land."

The FFC characterised the minister's statement as an example of Israel threatening the unlawful use of force against civilians and "attempting to justify that violence with smears".

"We will not be intimidated. The world is watching," FFC press officer Hay Sha Wiya said.

"The Madleen is a civilian vessel, unarmed and sailing in international waters, carrying humanitarian aid and human rights defenders from across the globe... Israel has no right to obstruct our effort to reach Gaza."

The group added that the vessel had earlier experienced temporary signal jamming, causing its location to appear near Jordan.

The Madleen is carrying a symbolic quantity of aid, including rice and baby formula, the group said.

People from Brazil, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Sweden and Turkey are onboard.
Israeli media say its navy is expected to block the boat before it reaches Gaza.

"We will calmly take control of the ship, bring them to Israel, and deport them abroad that same night," an Israeli official told the Jerusalem Post.

In 2010, Israeli commandos killed 10 people when they boarded Turkish ship Mavi Marmara that was leading an aid flotilla towards Gaza.

It is almost 20 months since Israel launched a military campaign in Gaza in response to an unprecedented Hamas-led cross-border attack on Israel, in which about 1,200 people were killed and 251 others were taken hostage.

At least 54,880 people have been killed in Gaza since, according to the territory's Hamas-run health ministry.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0r1dvlkrxgo
 
Israel is banning all journalists from entering Gaza. Obviously, this is because they don't want the world to know what is going on. That's the same reason they don't want the flotilla in gaza. Because the people there will tell the world about what they saw, and they don't want anyone to know what they are donig.
 
EnglishEdward said:
I guess that is likely the only reason they bothered to board
and capture her, rather than sink the boat and/or shoot her.
Click to expand...
Surprising, given the IDF usually has no problem shooting non-combatants, even from Western countries.
 
Like her or not (I don't) I perceive Greta as being some kind of very important beacon in the world of professional and sham activism. You don't want to make a martyr out of her...then again, according to mass media, its not like the IDF is having much self control these days!
 
Ordnael said:
Like her or not (I don't) I perceive Greta as being some kind of very important beacon in the world of professional and sham activism. You don't want to make a martyr out of her...then again, according to mass media, its not like the IDF is having much self control these days!
Click to expand...
Simply put, there is no actual interest in important western governments about Israel eliminating Gaza as a palestinian area. So it looks very likely by now that it will happen.
 

Palestinians say local gunmen and Israeli forces opened fire near Gaza aid site​

Palestinians in Gaza say they were fired on once again as they headed to one of the aid distribution centres run by the Israeli- and US-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation on Monday.

Witnesses said that for the first time they were fired on by Palestinian gunmen near the GHF site in the Tal al-Sultan area of Rafah, in the south. They also said Israeli troops fired on them.

Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry said six people were killed and 99 injured from areas designated for aid collection.

The Israeli military said it was looking into the reports.

The GHF said the Tal al-Sultan site did not open on Monday and that there were no incidents at two other sites which did hand out aid.

It comes days after Israel's prime minister acknowledged that it was arming Palestinian clans in Gaza who were opposed to Hamas.

Almost every day since the GHF began distributing aid on 26 May, there have been deadly incidents near one or other of the four centres it has so far opened.

Dozens of Palestinians have been killed while approaching one site in the Tal al-Sultan area of Rafah on a route that runs through an Israeli military zone.

In the previous incidents, witnesses have said that Israeli forces opened fire at crowds. The Israeli military has denied that troops fired at civilians within the site, but it has said that troops fired at "suspects" who ignored warning shots and approached them.

In Monday's incident, people at the scene said that Palestinian gunmen shot at them, as well as Israeli forces.

They said the gunmen appeared to be allied with the Israeli forces, as they were operating near them and moved back into an Israeli military zone.

One witness told BBC Arabic's Middle East daily programme that he saw a group of young men dressed in civilian clothes and with their faces completely covered when he arrived in the area to get a box of food aid from the GHF site.

"At first, we thought they might be Palestinian youths helping with the process, but suddenly, they began shooting at us," Hisham Saeed Salem said.

"Even those who managed to get a box of aid were targeted and shot. We still don't know who these attackers are. They took everything from us - some even stole from us during the chaos," he added.

Another man, Mohammed Sakout, said: "Several young men were shot and killed right behind me. I narrowly escaped death - some bullets passed just inches from my head."

"At first, it was the Israeli army that was shooting at civilians. But today, we were shocked to discover the presence of gangs and militias," he added.

At Nasser hospital in the nearby city of Khan Younis, a seriously injured man being treated for a gunshot wound to his neck, Mohammed Kabaga, told the Associated Press: "A group of masked armed men who were organising us starting firing towards us directly."

"We went to get aid. They said to stand in line. We stood in line and suddenly they started shooting at us. While I was standing, I was surprised when a bullet hit me, I got dizzy and fell down," he said.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) told the BBC that it was looking into the reports.

The GHF said in a statement that it opened two sites on Monday in the Saudi neighbourhood of Rafah and Wadi Gaza, in the centre of the Strip, and that "aid distribution at both sites proceeded without incident".

When asked by the BBC about the reports from Tal al-Sultan, a GHF spokesperson said there was "nothing around our sites".

However, a post on the group's Facebook account did say on Monday afternoon that the Tal al-Sultan centre was closed due to the "chaos of the crowds".

The GHF's interim executive director, John Acree, said it had delivered more than 11 million meals over the past two weeks "without an injury or major incident at our distribution sites".

Gaza's health ministry said hospitals had received a total of 127 dead and 1,287 injured people from "areas designated for aid distribution" during the same period.

The GHF, which uses US private security contractors, aims to bypass the UN as the main supplier of aid to Palestinians.

The UN and other aid groups refuse to co-operate with the new system, saying it contravenes the humanitarian principles of neutrality, impartiality, and independence.

They also warn that Gaza's 2.1 million population faces catastrophic levels of hunger after an almost three-month total Israeli blockade that was partially eased three weeks ago.

The US and Israel say the GHF's system will prevent aid being stolen by Hamas, which the group denies doing.

The Israeli military launched a campaign in Gaza in response to the Hamas-led attack on southern Israel on 7 October 2023, in which about 1,200 people were killed and 251 others were taken hostage.

At least 54,927 people have been killed in Gaza since then, according to the territory's health ministry.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c79e0zxy2lro
 

Canada, allies sanctioning 2 Israeli ministers over Gaza comments​

Several countries freeze assets, impose travel bans on Ben-Gvir and Smotrich​

Britain and other allies imposed sanctions on two far-right Israeli ministers, Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich, on Tuesday over "their repeated incitements of violence against Palestinian communities," the U.K.'s foreign ministry said.

Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Norway joined Britain in freezing the assets and imposing travel bans on Israel's National Security Minister Ben-Gvir — a West Bank settler — and Finance Minister Smotrich.

"Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich have incited extremist violence and serious abuses of Palestinian human rights. These actions are not acceptable," British Foreign Minister David Lammy, along with the foreign ministers of Australia, Canada, New Zealand and Norway, said in a joint statement.

"This is why we have taken action now to hold those responsible to account."

Israeli Foreign Minister Gideon Saar said the move was "outrageous" and that his government would hold a special meeting early next week to decide how to respond to the "unacceptable decision."

Smotrich, speaking at the inauguration of a new settlement in the Hebron Hills, spoke of "contempt" for Britain's move.

"Britain has already tried once to prevent us from settling the cradle of our homeland, and we cannot do it again. We are determined, God willing, to continue building," he said.

Britain, like other European countries, has been increasing pressure on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government to end the blockade on aid into Gaza, where international experts have said famine is imminent.

In Tuesday's joint statement, allies tried to soften the blow by saying Britain reiterated its commitment to continuing "a strong friendship with the people of Israel based on shared ties, values and commitment to security and future."

"We will strive to achieve an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, the immediate release of the remaining hostages by Hamas which can have no future role in the governance of Gaza, a surge in aid and a path to a two-state solution," the statement said.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-sanctions-israeli-ministers-1.7556968
 

United Nations to vote on demand for immediate Gaza ceasefire despite U.S., Israel opposition​

U.S. had vetoed draft resolution demanding an unconditional and permanent ceasefire​

The United Nations General Assembly will vote on Thursday on a draft resolution that demands an immediate, unconditional and permanent ceasefire in the war in Gaza after the United States vetoed a similar effort in the Security Council last week.

The 193-member General Assembly is likely to adopt the text with overwhelming support, diplomats say, despite Israel lobbying countries this week against taking part in what it called a "politically motivated, counterproductive charade."

General Assembly resolutions are not binding but carry weight as a reflection of the global view on the war. Previous demands by the body for an end to the war between Israel and Palestinian militants Hamas have been ignored. Unlike the UN Security Council, no country has a veto in the General Assembly.

Thursday's vote also comes ahead of a UN conference next week that aims to reinvigorate an international push for a two-state solution between Israel and the Palestinians. The United States has urged countries not to attend.

In a note seen by Reuters, the U.S. warned that "countries that take anti-Israel actions on the heels of the conference will be viewed as acting in opposition to U.S. foreign policy interests and could face diplomatic consequences."

The U.S. last week vetoed a draft UN Security Council resolution that also demanded an "immediate, unconditional and permanent ceasefire" and unhindered aid access in Gaza, arguing it would undermine U.S.-led efforts to broker a ceasefire.

The other 14 countries on the council voted in favour of the draft as a humanitarian crisis grips the enclave of more than two million people, where the UN warns famine looms and aid has only trickled in since Israel lifted an 11-week blockade last month.

'False and defamatory': Israel's UN ambassador​

The draft resolution to be voted on by the General Assembly on Thursday demands the release of hostages held by Hamas, the return of Palestinian prisoners detained by Israel and the full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza.

It demands unhindered aid access and "strongly condemns the use of starvation of civilians as a method of warfare and the unlawful denial of humanitarian access and depriving civilians ... of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supply and access."

"This is both false and defamatory," Israel's UN Ambassador Danny Danon wrote in a letter to UN member states, sent on Tuesday and seen by Reuters.

Danon described the General Assembly draft resolution as an "immensely flawed and harmful text," urging countries not to take part in what he said was a "farce" that undermines hostage negotiations and fails to condemn Hamas.

Whether the vote will have an effect on the outcome in Gaza is debatable, given previous efforts have produced little result.

In October 2023, the General Assembly called for an immediate humanitarian truce in Gaza with 120 votes in favour. In December 2023, 153 countries voted to demand an immediate humanitarian ceasefire. And in December last year the body demanded — with 158 votes in favour — an immediate, unconditional and permanent ceasefire.

The war in Gaza has raged since 2023 after Hamas militants killed 1,200 people in Israel in an Oct. 7 attack and took some 250 hostages back to the enclave, according to Israeli tallies. Many of those killed or captured were civilians.

Israel responded with a military campaign that has killed over 54,000 Palestinians, according to Gaza health authorities. They say civilians have borne the brunt of the attacks and that thousands more bodies have been lost under rubble.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/united-nations-gaza-ceasefire-1.7559065
 
^As a forced ceasefire wasn't accomplished even back when the US was (mildly) less direct about backing Israel 100%, during Biden (but of course still backed it 100%, it's politics/national interests and not ethics), this new vote can't have anything but purely ceremonial value.
 
Broken_Erika said:

Palestinians say local gunmen and Israeli forces opened fire near Gaza aid site​

Palestinians in Gaza say they were fired on once again as they headed to one of the aid distribution centres run by the Israeli- and US-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation on Monday.

Witnesses said that for the first time they were fired on by Palestinian gunmen near the GHF site in the Tal al-Sultan area of Rafah, in the south. They also said Israeli troops fired on them.

Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry said six people were killed and 99 injured from areas designated for aid collection.

The Israeli military said it was looking into the reports.

The GHF said the Tal al-Sultan site did not open on Monday and that there were no incidents at two other sites which did hand out aid.

It comes days after Israel's prime minister acknowledged that it was arming Palestinian clans in Gaza who were opposed to Hamas.

Almost every day since the GHF began distributing aid on 26 May, there have been deadly incidents near one or other of the four centres it has so far opened.

Dozens of Palestinians have been killed while approaching one site in the Tal al-Sultan area of Rafah on a route that runs through an Israeli military zone.

In the previous incidents, witnesses have said that Israeli forces opened fire at crowds. The Israeli military has denied that troops fired at civilians within the site, but it has said that troops fired at "suspects" who ignored warning shots and approached them.

In Monday's incident, people at the scene said that Palestinian gunmen shot at them, as well as Israeli forces.

They said the gunmen appeared to be allied with the Israeli forces, as they were operating near them and moved back into an Israeli military zone.

One witness told BBC Arabic's Middle East daily programme that he saw a group of young men dressed in civilian clothes and with their faces completely covered when he arrived in the area to get a box of food aid from the GHF site.

"At first, we thought they might be Palestinian youths helping with the process, but suddenly, they began shooting at us," Hisham Saeed Salem said.

"Even those who managed to get a box of aid were targeted and shot. We still don't know who these attackers are. They took everything from us - some even stole from us during the chaos," he added.

Another man, Mohammed Sakout, said: "Several young men were shot and killed right behind me. I narrowly escaped death - some bullets passed just inches from my head."

"At first, it was the Israeli army that was shooting at civilians. But today, we were shocked to discover the presence of gangs and militias," he added.

At Nasser hospital in the nearby city of Khan Younis, a seriously injured man being treated for a gunshot wound to his neck, Mohammed Kabaga, told the Associated Press: "A group of masked armed men who were organising us starting firing towards us directly."

"We went to get aid. They said to stand in line. We stood in line and suddenly they started shooting at us. While I was standing, I was surprised when a bullet hit me, I got dizzy and fell down," he said.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) told the BBC that it was looking into the reports.

The GHF said in a statement that it opened two sites on Monday in the Saudi neighbourhood of Rafah and Wadi Gaza, in the centre of the Strip, and that "aid distribution at both sites proceeded without incident".

When asked by the BBC about the reports from Tal al-Sultan, a GHF spokesperson said there was "nothing around our sites".

However, a post on the group's Facebook account did say on Monday afternoon that the Tal al-Sultan centre was closed due to the "chaos of the crowds".

The GHF's interim executive director, John Acree, said it had delivered more than 11 million meals over the past two weeks "without an injury or major incident at our distribution sites".

Gaza's health ministry said hospitals had received a total of 127 dead and 1,287 injured people from "areas designated for aid distribution" during the same period.

The GHF, which uses US private security contractors, aims to bypass the UN as the main supplier of aid to Palestinians.

The UN and other aid groups refuse to co-operate with the new system, saying it contravenes the humanitarian principles of neutrality, impartiality, and independence.

They also warn that Gaza's 2.1 million population faces catastrophic levels of hunger after an almost three-month total Israeli blockade that was partially eased three weeks ago.

The US and Israel say the GHF's system will prevent aid being stolen by Hamas, which the group denies doing.

The Israeli military launched a campaign in Gaza in response to the Hamas-led attack on southern Israel on 7 October 2023, in which about 1,200 people were killed and 251 others were taken hostage.

At least 54,927 people have been killed in Gaza since then, according to the territory's health ministry.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c79e0zxy2lro
Click to expand...
they're Hamas; they want to total control the food distribution just like the ran everything else (once). What leads us to believe otherwise?

And if it's Israel causing violent disruptions, undercover, in these few cases, when millions of meals are being distributed already, they will have to do far better at false flag ops let alone full embargoes to have any deleterious effect on Gazans.

bbc of course scales this back to: it's just rando "gunmen" out and about looking for trouble. Sure fine I'll buy it /s
 
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