Waterboarding

[El_Machinae]

Well, I understand that there's a difference. But some of that difference is semantics, and some of that difference doesn't apply here. If a person creates a scenario where you need to torture them to save a loved one, then it seems that they've consented (in a way) to the torture.

 

[BSmith1068]

it apparently worked on that sheik dude in the embarrassing T-shirt. If the person being tortured doesn't have useful info, then the stuff they do give us will slow our search for good info. Thats the only negative I can see, other than our reputation ... But if they do have useful info, waterboarding is a relatively safe way (safe for them actually) to get it.

One could argue that our reputation is much more important than the possibility of getting valid info from a suspected terrorist.

The simple fact that we as a nation have gone against our own stated human rights values and have engaged in torture when it was convenient to us, yet decry it when it is used against us or in a manner that we do not agree with, has had precisely the opposite effect that the torture was supposed to have in the first place.

The stated reason we torture is so that “we can prevent the next attack”. By engaging in torture, we are fueling the sentiments and providing justification for all of the jihadists out there who would like to attack America. This causes a larger base of popular support for their beliefs and encourages people to join in their efforts. By us torturing, we are actually increasing the chance that we will be attacked, not reducing the chances.

Not to mention the fact that in the process we have lost some of what has made us great as a nation. In a sense – by us resorting to torture, the terrorists have already won.

Torture is inexcusable for any reason.

If you are really interested in preventing terrorism in the long term, I suggest reading this white paper.

 

[Quiet Sound]

But torture does work. They have ways to ensure the CIA doesn't get fooled by what you just said.

What do you base this on?

If some nutcase buried my kid with a limited supply of O2, I'd do whatever it took to get the information I need to save my kid.

No matter how you reword it, it's still the ticking time bomb scenario with all the failures that has.

 

[.Shane.]

Wait, are people SURPRISED to learn that the US has been weatherboarding people???

Bold mine

Wait wait wait...

Did you just inadvertently coin a new term?

Weatherboard: verb: To torture an opponent by stretching facts to the limits of plausibility.

Usage: McCain sure did weatherboard Obama with those Ayers accusations. No doubt it was payback for the weatherboarding of Palin regarding the witch doctor!

 

[Draconian]

If some nutcase buried my kid with a limited supply of O2, I'd do whatever it took to get the information I need to save my kid. I assume this is what interrogators have in mind when they got someone important, the faster they get the information the better.

What if you torture the wrong person? In that case you just ruined the lives of one, or maybe two (you and the victim), persons.
That what-if-it-was-your-child-argument doesn't work anyway. If it's your child you are prejudiced and don't get to decide what happens to the criminal. There's a reason that judges aren't allowed to work on cases where they are personally involved.

And that Jack-Bauer-needs-to-torture-the-evil-terrorist-to-find-the-bomb-that-will-explode-in-30-minutes-scenario doesn't work either.

Waterboarding is acceptable on people we know to be terrorists, that limits its use to maybe a few dozen people but if it works...it works... If someone is trying to kill me, do I have to respect their human rights? I dont think so, I just gotta make sure they're guilty.

The fact that waterboarding works show that it is indeed torture.
And if someone is trying to kill you, you are allowed to defend yourself. But if you are able to torture someone, he isn't in a position to endanger your live anymore! In that situation you have allready overwhelmed him. Torture is no self-defence!

 

[Berzerker]

Hey, you're perfectly right in using your right to self defense when it's justified... But you don't have a right to torture them. Torture is prima facie immoral.

Wait a second, I can kill them in self defense and thats justified but dunking their head in water to save my kid's life is immoral? Am I not defending my kid's life?

 

[Sharwood]

Wait a second, I can kill them in self defense and thats justified but dunking their head in water to save my kid's life is immoral? Am I not defending my kid's life?

I happen to agree with Berzerker on this. In martial arts, you're taught only to use your skills in the defence of yourself or others. In this case, the child constitutes an other. I would condone using torture in this situation, but only with certainty that the person being tortured is actually the one that harmed the child, and can assist in its safety.

 

[Berzerker]

One could argue that our reputation is much more important than the possibility of getting valid info from a suspected terrorist.

It depends, if we use it on a few known terrorists I think most people understand it was out of a legitimate urgency. It hurts world opinion of us but lets not fool ourselves into thinking most countries wouldn't resort to waterboarding if it might prevent an impending attack. If its systemic then we got a problem, we're probably not all that sure about the terrorists' actual guilt, but from what I've heard so far it was only used on a few people.

The simple fact that we as a nation have gone against our own stated human rights values and have engaged in torture when it was convenient to us, yet decry it when it is used against us or in a manner that we do not agree with, has had precisely the opposite effect that the torture was supposed to have in the first place.

Justification matters... When people condemn torture they do so within the context of dictators torturing innocent peasants (Its the Inquisition...the Inquisition) or soldiers fighting the good fight. But as we can clearly see, put into a different context - a nutcase buried your kid with limited O2 and you dont have the luxury of employing a judicial system - most people would torture the SOB to save their kid.

Put yourself in the place of the people who caught and interrogated that sheik dude in the T-shirt - the guy is a planner of attacks, an organizer, this guy has information that may save lives. He's the nutcase who has buried your kid. Whatever human rights he had, he gave up when he started murdering people. He should be thankful he broke under water boarding, I'd be doin much worse to him.

By engaging in torture, we are fueling the sentiments and providing justification for all of the jihadists out there who would like to attack America.

I'd say those videos of jihadists beheading people fueled our sentiments justifying torture. We dunk yer head in water, they cut it off... So yer an innocent Iraqi and you have 2 options - capture by Americans or capture by jihadists. Seriously, its hard for people to get upset about water boarding when the enemy beheads people. The comparison to the Japanese in WWII doesn't work, the Japanese were bastards running around slaughtering civilian populations - they were torturing soldiers fighting the good fight. Are we torturing soldiers fighting the good fight? Of course not, they're thugs... They're the nutcase who has buried yer kid.

This causes a larger base of popular support for their beliefs and encourages people to join in their efforts. By us torturing, we are actually increasing the chance that we will be attacked, not reducing the chances.

Thats a potential hazard, but the savagery of our opponents make us look tame to most people. What inspires AQ was our military presence in Saudi Arabia when we didn't leave after the first Gulf War.

Not to mention the fact that in the process we have lost some of what has made us great as a nation. In a sense – by us resorting to torture, the terrorists have already won.

Oh c'mon, water boarding is hardly near the top of the list of our crimes.

Torture is inexcusable for any reason.

Most people would disagree if their loved one was about to die...

If you are really interested in preventing terrorism in the long term, I suggest reading this white paper.

Getting the hell out of the ME will work for me

 

[Berzerker]

I happen to agree with Berzerker on this. In martial arts, you're taught only to use your skills in the defence of yourself or others. In this case, the child constitutes an other. I would condone using torture in this situation, but only with certainty that the person being tortured is actually the one that harmed the child, and can assist in its safety.

We can make it more complicated What if the person you're about to torture didn't bury your kid but knows where your kid is buried and wont tell. They can assist in the child's safety and wont. I'd still torture 'em

 

[Berzerker]

No matter how you reword it, it's still the ticking time bomb scenario with all the failures that has.

Yeah? What failures? My question is straightforward, and you didn't answer it, If a nutcase buried yer kid with limited O2, would you torture him to save yer kid?

 

[Sharwood]

We can make it more complicated What if the person you're about to torture didn't bury your kid but knows where your kid is buried and wont tell. They can assist in the child's safety and wont. I'd still torture 'em

It's still in the defence of self or others. I'd condone it.

 

[Berzerker]

What if you torture the wrong person?

You quoted the answer in your post, justification matters. If we accidently jail the innocent, does that mean jailing the guilty is immoral?

In that case you just ruined the lives of one, or maybe two (you and the victim), persons.

They'll get over it, I've swallowed lots of water swimming and nearly drowning didn't ruin my life (is Hitchens' in ruins now?). But I didn't know I was supposed to defend water boarding the innocent, in my posts I'm talking about water boarding the guilty. Some people here think water boarding is inherently immoral, thats what we're debating. We are not debating if its immoral to water board the innocent. Thats a no brainer...

That what-if-it-was-your-child-argument doesn't work anyway. If it's your child you are prejudiced and don't get to decide what happens to the criminal.

You mean the victim is a human being with value in my scenario? Exactly! If its just some stranger, its easier to be moral and not torture the SOB? What is prejudicial about saving your kid's life? Now, put yourself in the place of an American interrogator and you have the t-shirt sheik. This guy is not innocent, he's been murdering people for years and he's got information that could save lives. I want that interrogator to think his kid's life is on the line even though he has some detachment from the emotional ties a parent would have in my scenario.

There's a reason that judges aren't allowed to work on cases where they are personally involved.

Thats because they are making decisions before guilt or innocence is known, in my scenario guilt is a given.

And that Jack-Bauer-needs-to-torture-the-evil-terrorist-to-find-the-bomb-that-will-explode-in-30-minutes-scenario doesn't work either.

On the contrary, it explodes the nonsense that torture is inherently immoral.

The fact that waterboarding works show that it is indeed torture.

So if a terrorist broke under tea and crumpets, that would be torture? Its more a psychological form of torture, similar but not identical to mock executions. The sense of drowning induces panic but rarely results in any actual damage. Lets just say if you go thru it, its torture... But who hasn't experienced the sense of drowning, I can remember a few times just from rough housing with friends.

And if someone is trying to kill you, you are allowed to defend yourself. But if you are able to torture someone, he isn't in a position to endanger your live anymore! In that situation you have allready overwhelmed him. Torture is no self-defence!

You aint torturing him for fun, you're torturing him to save your kid's life. But if somebody tried to kill me and I captured them, I'd let 'em know how I felt about it... and I'm sure someone would call it torture... I call it mercy, they're still alive and they should be thankful.

 

[JollyRoger]

If you found out that your kid knew that Jack Bauer was about to waterboard some innocent, would you be justified in waterboarding your kid so that he would tell you where Jack Bauer was?

 

[Sharwood]

If you found out that your kid knew that Jack Bauer was about to waterboard some innocent, would you be justified in waterboarding your kid so that he would tell you where Jack Bauer was?

Yes, you would. Hopefully your kid would cough it up without torture though.

 

[Ecofarm]

Waterboarding is not torture, ask the AG.

 

[philippe]

Waterboarding is not torture, ask the AG.

So, if it's not torture why were japanese officers trialed and executed by US military courts for waterboarding marines?

 

[philippe]

During World War II both Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, and the officers of the Gestapo,[54] the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture.[55] During the Japanese occupation of Singapore the Double Tenth Incident occurred. This included waterboarding, by the method of binding or holding down the victim on his back, placing a cloth over his mouth and nose, and pouring water onto the cloth. In this version, interrogation continued during the torture, with the interrogators beating the victim if he did not reply and the victim swallowing water if he opened his mouth to answer or breathe. When the victim could ingest no more water, the interrogators would beat or jump on his distended stomach.[56][57]

Chase J. Nielsen, one of the U.S. airmen who flew in the Doolittle raid following the attack on Pearl Harbour, was subjected to waterboarding by his Japanese captors.[58] At their trial for war crimes following the war, he testified "Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let up until I’d get my breath, then they’d start over again... I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death".[30]

 

[RalofTyr]

Waterboarding is not torture, ask the AG.

Then I guess you wouldn't mind being waterboarded huh?

 

[Ecofarm]

So, if it's not torture why were japanese officers trialed and executed by US military courts for waterboarding marines?

That was not the only thing.

Then I guess you wouldn't mind being waterboarded huh?

Not at all, bring it on. I know I'm gonna live without harm, big deal.

 

[Defiant47]

I think we ought to hold ourselves to higher standards than terrorists.

I disagree. We should lower ourselves, even lower than terrorists if necessary, until we win the war on terror, and then we can get back to our higher standards. It would only be a temporary measure.