What’s Going on With Teens?

[Zardnaar]

I'm referring to small cabins of various types located on what were then called Indian reservations. The time we were there was in the 1960s-1970s. By the time of the mid-late '80s, gentrification and modern buildings started appearing all over the lakes where older cabins used to be - on Mara Lake, Shuswap Lake, Okanagan Lake (where two of our cabins were), Kalamalka Lake... it's actually depressing to think about.

There are reserves that to this day have no indoor plumbing or running water. And those aren't casual holiday places where non-indigenous spend a few weeks. Those are year-round places where these people are expected to live. Every time an election rolls around, the party leaders pledge to have all of them fixed, but always fall short.

Nowadays, the places on the lake where cabins were (at least those not on indigenous land) aren't cabins. The land got bought up, the little cabins got knocked down, and what I'd call a mansion got built there. They aren't "cabins" any more.

They're not really cabins. South Island us cribs, North Island Bach.

Old school ones are built out of scrap very few of those ones left. They're normally coastal or near a body of water.

 

[innonimatu]

tw: suicide.

I didn’t really want to put that word in the title, so I apologize for the “kids these days” sound, but you have fallen for my clickbait!

But that’s part of what I would like to discuss! Everyone has heard about the suicide epidemic and how rates of suicide are sharply rising for both adults and teens. This is very true. In the last 15 years, the per 100k rate of suicide for teens has almost doubled.

But what you might not know is even with that doubling, the current rate is below modern highs. And that’s because starting in 1994, teen suicide rates started to - what can only be described as - plummet at incredibly, miraculously quick rates. By 2006, just 12 years later, and back down near their modern low, they had dropped from around 11 per 100k to around 5. That is a startling change. The current rise started from that near record low in 2006.

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There is a quickly growing attempt to figure out the modern rise in rates; smartphones, fentanyl, social isolation, student debt, cost of living, global warming and more have all been either proposed or more seriously looked at as mechanisms.

I’m open to discussions on that question, but the second question is one with, way, way less research. And that is; what caused that sharp decline? For this I’ve seen stuff from “sweet spot of having video games but having to play multiplayer locally and in person as opposed to online” to a study that showed that after Cobain’s suicide, suicides in King County the following year sharply declined (we usually see the opposite effect after celebrity suicide). But to say that there are way less satisfying answers here would be an understatement.

It’s also worth noting that teen girls’ suicide is now at record highs beyond the historical “norm” and I am open to discussion there too.

Your thoughts and any data you might have would be appreciated!

Looking at the graph, doesn't look like an epidemic to me. Much ado about little?

The fall between 1990 and 2000 in the US (I assume that's where the graph applies) corresponds to economic boom years together with an end of he socially repressive 1980s and the cold war anxiety.
That all logically had an effect in suicides. I'm sure that if you look at suicide rates in those contries that were turned to crap during the 1990s you would see the opposite evolution.

The resent worsening logically corresponds to worsening of conditions on all that. More anxiety, more poverty, more social repression. Yes, more social repression - the 2010s and 20s are being worse than the 1990s. And believe me they will get much worse still in the US. The pressure towards conformity and correct-thinking is huge, leading to feelings of maladjustment when doing the required performances does not solve any actual problems. A more ritualized society wherte the magic rituals fail to deliver...

 

[Joij21]

Quite simple really. Ask these questions: 1. What is the purpose of life in general? 2. What is the purpose of my life? I bet that the returns are depressing.

"To die Mr. Bond! I expect you to die!"

is it though? it's odd that one needs a "purpose" to enjoy life. even making and acting on a purpose requires subjective evaluation, and who is to decide which action(s) are best beyond the person making them?

i don't think an *objective* sense of purpose or meaning is possible, and that definitely doesn't have to lead to being depressed about it.

But there are things that nonetheless make you "enjoy" the life. Those things in and of themselves would be the so called purpose even if they are little things.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

But there are things that nonetheless make you "enjoy" the life. Those things in and of themselves would be the so called purpose even if they are little things.

if that's how you define it, then sure! but as i noted, this is not an objective thing and what specific things bring enjoyment (and how much) vary person to person. i'm not saying there can't be meaning or purpose, but rather that there's no singular objective framework for these

 

[Joij21]

if that's how you define it, then sure! but as i noted, this is not an objective thing and what specific things bring enjoyment (and how much) vary person to person. i'm not saying there can't be meaning or purpose, but rather that there's no singular objective framework for these

Which is why some people kill themselves. They judge themselves to standards of meaning which they cannot keep.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Which is why some people kill themselves. They judge themselves to standards of meaning which they cannot keep.

i wonder if that is the reason, fundamentally. probably varies person to person hence your "some". but yeah, this is sad because those standards of meaning probably aren't reasonable, or necessary for that person.

 

[Joij21]

i wonder if that is the reason, fundamentally.

It is.

The other reason beyond that would be because they are in a situation of great pain and torment.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

Ezra Klein, who clearly reads my Genius twitter ideas and then waters them down for the NYT no-labels crowd, recently had a podcast episode that addresses quite literally everything in this thread; the current rise and how it’s taking place around the world, the extreme rise in teen girls, the historical peak of the 80s, etc. etc.

Opinion | Why Are Teens in Crisis? Here’s What the Evidence Says. (Published 2023)

The psychologist Jean Twenge makes a definitive case for why smartphones and social media are contributing to the mental health struggles of young people.

www.nytimes.com

Some tl;dr

In the 80s when you split out sucide by non-firearm suicide and firearm suicide, the former was flat while the latter skyrocketed. There was a huge drop in firearm prices that decade and it was incredibly easy to purchase them - perhaps easier than at any point in modern America up until the last couple years. That was also the violent crime peak and just a really disordered time in America.

The time frame for the rise is remarkably consistent globally, around 2012 in just about every country.

Middle and younger millennials who were in their 20s and early 30s when this rise started have also seen a significant rise, while older millennials have not. Coincidentally, there’s also a pretry hefty split in social media use between those two groups.

Teens and young adults are getting less sleep than at any time in recorded history in the US (roughly 60-70 years of reliable record keeping).

When talking to boys (who have seen rates go up but are still off record peaks) and girls (all time highs), video games appear as a potential protective factor. While boys and girls play video games pretty evenly these days, boys much more commonly play online games in which they are actively socializing with their friends. It’s not quite face to face, but it is believed to be something, and better than a more solitary gaming experience (more evidence for LAN parties being the peak of civilization).

Clinical psychology and related fields are increasingly convinced smartphones and social media are largely to blame, and when you talk to people who are knee deep studying this problem, they are much more confident about that then laypeople/journalists/etc.

They go over why things like school shootings (this depressive rise is global), global warming (teens were more worried about that in the 90s believe it or not), and economic issues (depression/suicide actually was still going down over the first 5 years of the Great Recession, including for young adults graduating from school into the thick of it), and more likely are not to blame.

 

[Kyriakos]

The effect of the internet cannot be understated. My own generation was the last to have at least the first decade of their life without internet.
The web does allow you to learn more things about others (on the surface, anyway), which leads to more comparisons.
While clearly as a whole the internet is a massively positive change, it can exacerbate existing problems.

 

[Joij21]

Ezra Klein, who clearly reads my Genius twitter ideas and then waters them down for the NYT no-labels crowd, recently had a podcast episode that addresses quite literally everything in this thread; the current rise and how it’s taking place around the world, the extreme rise in teen girls, the historical peak of the 80s, etc. etc.

Opinion | Why Are Teens in Crisis? Here’s What the Evidence Says. (Published 2023)

The psychologist Jean Twenge makes a definitive case for why smartphones and social media are contributing to the mental health struggles of young people.

www.nytimes.com

Some tl;dr

In the 80s when you split out sucide by non-firearm suicide and firearm suicide, the former was flat while the latter skyrocketed. There was a huge drop in firearm prices that decade and it was incredibly easy to purchase them - perhaps easier than at any point in modern America up until the last couple years. That was also the violent crime peak and just a really disordered time in America.

The time frame for the rise is remarkably consistent globally, around 2012 in just about every country.

Middle and younger millennials who were in their 20s and early 30s when this rise started have also seen a significant rise, while older millennials have not. Coincidentally, there’s also a pretry hefty split in social media use between those two groups.

Teens and young adults are getting less sleep than at any time in recorded history in the US (roughly 60-70 years of reliable record keeping).

When talking to boys (who have seen rates go up but are still off record peaks) and girls (all time highs), video games appear as a potential protective factor. While boys and girls play video games pretty evenly these days, boys much more commonly play online games in which they are actively socializing with their friends. It’s not quite face to face, but it is believed to be something, and better than a more solitary gaming experience (more evidence for LAN parties being the peak of civilization).

Clinical psychology and related fields are increasingly convinced smartphones and social media are largely to blame, and when you talk to people who are knee deep studying this problem, they are much more confident about that then laypeople/journalists/etc.

They go over why things like school shootings (this depressive rise is global), global warming (teens were more worried about that in the 90s believe it or not), and economic issues (depression/suicide actually was still going down over the first 5 years of the Great Recession, including for young adults graduating from school into the thick of it), and more likely are not to blame.

Some I believe some I don't. The stuff I don't I chalk up to certain individuals choosing certain statistics to protect their own interests.

I still think the Great Recession had a roll, the five year delay was probably those who had fallen behind still having hope they would recover but after that five year period some recovered faster than others but those that remained behind were in the dust unable to adapt. Then the increase of suicides began once this realization kicked in.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Ezra Klein, who clearly reads my Genius twitter ideas and then waters them down for the NYT no-labels crowd, recently had a podcast episode that addresses quite literally everything in this thread; the current rise and how it’s taking place around the world, the extreme rise in teen girls, the historical peak of the 80s, etc. etc.

Opinion | Why Are Teens in Crisis? Here’s What the Evidence Says. (Published 2023)

The psychologist Jean Twenge makes a definitive case for why smartphones and social media are contributing to the mental health struggles of young people.

www.nytimes.com

Some tl;dr

In the 80s when you split out sucide by non-firearm suicide and firearm suicide, the former was flat while the latter skyrocketed. There was a huge drop in firearm prices that decade and it was incredibly easy to purchase them - perhaps easier than at any point in modern America up until the last couple years. That was also the violent crime peak and just a really disordered time in America.

The time frame for the rise is remarkably consistent globally, around 2012 in just about every country.

Middle and younger millennials who were in their 20s and early 30s when this rise started have also seen a significant rise, while older millennials have not. Coincidentally, there’s also a pretry hefty split in social media use between those two groups.

Teens and young adults are getting less sleep than at any time in recorded history in the US (roughly 60-70 years of reliable record keeping).

When talking to boys (who have seen rates go up but are still off record peaks) and girls (all time highs), video games appear as a potential protective factor. While boys and girls play video games pretty evenly these days, boys much more commonly play online games in which they are actively socializing with their friends. It’s not quite face to face, but it is believed to be something, and better than a more solitary gaming experience (more evidence for LAN parties being the peak of civilization).

Clinical psychology and related fields are increasingly convinced smartphones and social media are largely to blame, and when you talk to people who are knee deep studying this problem, they are much more confident about that then laypeople/journalists/etc.

They go over why things like school shootings (this depressive rise is global), global warming (teens were more worried about that in the 90s believe it or not), and economic issues (depression/suicide actually was still going down over the first 5 years of the Great Recession, including for young adults graduating from school into the thick of it), and more likely are not to blame.

About 1 in 3 teen girls have considered suicide nowadays.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/02/17/teen-girls-mental-health-crisis/

Damour noted that the CDC findings are distressing because today’s teens, in many ways, are in better physical health and more risk-averse than most previous generations.

“We’re raising the best-behaved generation of teenagers on record,” said Damour. “They drive with seat belts, they smoke less, they have less sex, they wear helmets. They do all these things that we did not do.”

The crisis is a total mystery!

 

[stfoskey12]

The effect of the internet cannot be understated. My own generation was the last to have at least the first decade of their life without internet.
The web does allow you to learn more things about others (on the surface, anyway), which leads to more comparisons.
While clearly as a whole the internet is a massively positive change, it can exacerbate existing problems.

Even being born in 1998, I did not use computers or the internet much in the first decade of my life. My mom had dial-up until she married my stepdad in 2009, so any internet use at her house was slow and clunky. I was super into maps as a kid, and around 2005 my dad showed me Google Maps and Google Earth, but I would have to ask to go on the computer to use them, and he would look over my shoulder while I did so. It wasn't until 5th grade (2008-09) that I started regularly using Microsoft Word to type up assignments instead of writing them out by hand, and conducting some online research instead of using my mom's old Encyclopedia Britannica or library books (I would still use books for research, but not exclusively).

 

[Farm Boy]

About 1 in 3 teen girls have considered suicide nowadays.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/02/17/teen-girls-mental-health-crisis/

The crisis is a total mystery!

They're recorded nonstop, too. There's nowhere to go and be safe from judgement, unless you toe the line almost without any fail.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Quite so.

When I was young, photographs were for christening, funerals and weddings and other noted
occasions where people would dress up and line up. We'd go down a pub with acquaintances.
Drink, act silly and talk nonsense. Unless someone got grossly groped or injured, nobody gave a dam.

Yet now it is all recorded, and one's slightest indiscretion is recorded indefinitely.

And the worse thing about political correctness, is that that cult has no forgiveness.

 

[Gorbles]

Did wonder how long it'd take The Discourse to get back around to "political correctness".

 

[Farm Boy]

There's always social correctness. But the pervasive recording of actions fashions and statements is new. Teens seem to have somewhat of a passing concern for social interactions.

I also the ponder the effect of a decrease in young and old people sitting through constant lectures on forgiveness compared to social and political depictions of ongoing historical grievance. As a proportional thing.

 

[Gorbles]

Everything's always been recorded. The scale was smaller, is all. Trust your elders, and all that. Someone says something and they're right for being a dude, or right for being over 40. Take your pick. The damage is still done.

Like, I'm actually a millenial, who actually grew up with the Internet. Everybody's trading anecdotes here, and I can say with a large amount of certainty that "no forgiveness" isn't something that belongs to the "cult of political correctness". It's embedded in families, after all.

Is the Internet perfect and without flaw? It is incapable of causing harm? Has it caused little harm to date? No, no, no and no. Not in the slightest. But "the kids" are far better at navigating it than most of the people (behind on) writing laws to regulate it. And that's a problem. But not the problem that's being presented here.

 

[Lexicus]

As far as I can tell the teens are almost entirely "pervasively recording" themselves through apps like Snapchat and Tiktok so I don't see it as that big of a concern

 

[Farm Boy]

Children doing things themselves isn't a matter of concern?

And no, not almost everything has always been recorded. The pervasiveness is barely comparable. We're talking, it's in print. Discord chat is in print. Social media is in print. Streets are recorded. Schools are recorded. The bus is recorded. Shops are recorded. Front yards are recorded. Door bells are recorded. And, from what I can tell from my old idiot 2nd level supervisor, his HOA in Naperville requires security recordings inside the house. No. It's really not the same.

 

[Gorbles]

Everything has already been recorded. What "everything" is has changed.

Our digital fingerprints are stored by companies we have no power over, so they can increasingly refine attempts to sell us whatever it is they want to sell us. But that's not a literal recording of something that can be weaponised by your best friend-slash-enemy.

If you're complaining about interactions, and only interactions, then that's a whole different kettle of fish, and that goes both ways. The flipside of being recorded is accountability, or a lack of it. We can't run invisible numbers. We can't say "this many people used to get away with it". But we know people did. This is not me saying one is better than the other. This is me saying there have always been problems, and when people talk about "political correctness" they're not actually talking about stuff being recorded. They're talking about people being caught. Caught as in, done something wrong and caught. Not done nothing and caught, because that's no catch.

If your specific and only concern is people being entrapped; of having their lives ruined over something they didn't do . . . go ahead and be concerned, I guess. But at that point we're not really talking about the kids, or "political correctness", or even technology. Again, that's something someone of any age can attempt. It's not here, it's not "with the teens". Certainly I don't think you'd agree with any solution I could pose, for problems like that. Not when "children doing things themselves" is a matter for concern, apparently.

Why?

Why not adults? Are we back to the magical thinking that adults are somehow rational, fully-formed, independent thinkers? Did I miss the biochemical event that causes this definitive shift in how we perceive things as humans? I'm assuming I did.

tl;dr: what are you actually concerned about being recorded? I feel like it always comes back to that.

This isn't a "if you've got nothing to hide" thing. I don't trust the companies doing the recording. But we're talking about what people do with this information, and it's weird because I'm discussing this with you, Farm Boy, and Edward (tangentially), two people who I'm pretty sure I know wouldn't support what I want to do when it comes to protecting people from abuse of this information. Because it involves legislation!