What Civs' Unique Abilites would you like to see changed?

[black213]

In G&K, base city unhappiness (the unhappiness from just founding the city, without population being taken into account at all) went from 2 to 3.

The unhappiness cost per city was increased in a patch far before G&K. IIRC it was in the same patch that made happiness overall harder to obtain, reducing the happiness from buildings and the happiness from luxuries (used to be 5 happiness per lux).

 

[LoneRebel]

Thanks for the detailed explanations. Matthew's second post pretty much sums it up nicely. I somehow missed Bobert13's post before I wrote my second one, but I've seen it now.

I also learned something else in this thread: the value of the Dutch and Swedish UAs. I used to be of the opinion that the Dutch UA is not very useful - why would you want to trade away your last copy of a luxury? And then, from Matthew's and Tyrvos's exchange earlier in the thread, I realized that you can trade away that copy to get a copy of a luxury you don't have, while still keeping half the bonus from the luxury you traded away. Or you could trade it for gold if you think that's more important than happiness. I can't believe I missed that, lol.

Same with Sweden's Nobel Prize: Why would you want to gift away GPs for CS influence? I wasn't aware that the GP production bonus stacked with each DoF, and of course you sometimes get GPs that you can't better use for anything else.

Edit: One issue with Sweden though, in my (admittedly limited) experience the AIs never give out DoF's mid- to late-game. They only give them out in the early game and then almost always take them back later on. Doesn't this make it a bit difficult to take advantage of Sweden's UA?

 

[ArguCa]

Songhai. their UA pretty bad and if you disable barbarians you have nothing.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I haven't seen it mentioned (could have missed it), but it seems to me that Arabia's ability will need to be changed because of the new trade system, even if just in wording.

 

[Ballza]

My more ideas

India: Religious Birthplace: every 4 popultaion provide 1 faith and 1 culture/turn
and the city which have artifact, that +20% growth (according having holy/sacred artifact brings fertility rite)

 

[cybrxkhan]

Probably has been mentioned already, but I would really like China's UA to be changed. Of all the possible things they could have represented China as being good at, ranging from agriculture to technological innovation to being one of the economic centers of the pre-modern world to having a meritocratic bureaucratic system (in theory) and so on, they chose a military bonus which, in my opinion, while not entirely unsuitable, isn't really the best choice given all of China's other great achievements. China did conquer and attack, yes, but I don't think it's known for that - I find it a bit odd that The Art of War is all that China is represented by at least for the UA.

Frankly, I thought that either France's or Siam's original UA would've suited China better. France's UA could've represented China's significant cultural influence, and Siam's UA (renamed something like "Middle Kingdom") could've represented the power and influence it held over many of states in Asia

I would hope for some UA (maybe called "The Middle Kingdom" or something) that shows how China's culture spread and permeated many aspects of surrounding cultures throughout Asia, so some sort of tourism bonus, I suppose.

 

[Remmert]

For Germany, I would like to see the Landsknecht being kicked out and being replaced it the UI: Autobahn.

Available after Combustion.
Upgrades Roads/Railroads.
Bonus: 50% more movement points than Railroads, 20% tourism for cities connected with capital.

 

[steveg700]

Edit: One issue with Sweden though, in my (admittedly limited) experience the AIs never give out DoF's mid- to late-game. They only give them out in the early game and then almost always take them back later on. Doesn't this make it a bit difficult to take advantage of Sweden's UA?

Basically, you have to be mindful of who you befriend. Usually, there's some schism between the AI's, and you have to try to make sure that you have at least two friends that are friends with each other. Then you need to find one of their mutual enemies and denounce them. And when they ask for a gift, strongly consider giving it to them if it's something you won't miss.

If you try to straddle fences, you're setting yourself up to be out in the cold. The AI will intentionally try to befriend you to backstab you later, and part of the reason it does that is because the act of befriending them makes their enemies dislike you. Once they're the only friend you have, it's time for the ol' stabberoo!

Also, if you're going to DoW, see if anybody else will join you. If they won't join you, at least ask them what they'll trade you to declare war by yourself.

 

[codepoet]

Probably has been mentioned already, but I would really like China's UA to be changed. Of all the possible things they could have represented China as being good at, ranging from agriculture to technological innovation to being one of the economic centers of the pre-modern world to having a meritocratic bureaucratic system (in theory) and so on, they chose a military bonus which, in my opinion, while not entirely unsuitable, isn't really the best choice given all of China's other great achievements. China did conquer and attack, yes, but I don't think it's known for that - I find it a bit odd that The Art of War is all that China is represented by at least for the UA.

Frankly, I thought that either France's or Siam's original UA would've suited China better. France's UA could've represented China's significant cultural influence, and Siam's UA (renamed something like "Middle Kingdom") could've represented the power and influence it held over many of states in Asia

I would hope for some UA (maybe called "The Middle Kingdom" or something) that shows how China's culture spread and permeated many aspects of surrounding cultures throughout Asia, so some sort of tourism bonus, I suppose.

I just disagree. The Art of War, by Sun Tzu is one of the first things I think of when I think of China (that and the Great Wall and populous). Otherwise most of China's history really is war-centric (Three Kingdoms history, invasions from Mongols, etc). Besides... the UB is the Paper Maker, a Library replacement, and the UU is pretty versatile (due to how archers work in the game), but design-wise are pretty defensive.

So the UA is war focused, the UB is economy focused and the UU is defensive. I think they're pretty balanced.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I just disagree. The Art of War, by Sun Tzu is one of the first things I think of when I think of China (that and the Great Wall and populous). Otherwise most of China's history really is war-centric (Three Kingdoms history, invasions from Mongols, etc). Besides... the UB is the Paper Maker, a Library replacement, and the UU is pretty versatile (due to how archers work in the game), but design-wise are pretty defensive.

So the UA is war focused, the UB is economy focused and the UU is defensive. I think they're pretty balanced.

This may come from me being Asian (though not Chinese), but I've always seen China as a sort of cultural and economic center - for much of its history, it was the cultural center of Asia, and it was the economic center of the world. Why did everyone from Europe want to get to China? Because it was just so prosperous (relatively speaking). Its cities were some of the largest in the world (even today), and also the most prosperous. Chang'an was the end of the Silk Road and boasted large communities of foreign merchants seeking to make riches from trade; Hangzhou, as another example, boasted some of the worlds' first restaurants and had large water canals to bolster transportation and communication. China's history, in my opinion, isn't really war-centric - more so, it flips between war and peace with the good old dynastic rise and fall.

But, well, that's how I see it. I think the Art of War thing just about falls into the stereotype of Asians knowledgeable about martial arts and all that.
Obviously UAs aren't reflective of the civs' greatest achievements (otherwise Germany would've gotten something else, for instance), but I frankly don't see military achievements as something that a normal person would associate with China - if anything, they'd think of its "ancient" and "traditional" culture, which is what I'm getting at.

 

[codepoet]

This may come from me being Asian (though not Chinese), but I've always seen China as a sort of cultural and economic center - for much of its history, it was the cultural center of Asia, and it was the economic center of the world. Why did everyone from Europe want to get to China? Because it was just so prosperous (relatively speaking). Its cities were some of the largest in the world (even today), and also the most prosperous. Chang'an was the end of the Silk Road and boasted large communities of foreign merchants seeking to make riches from trade; Hangzhou, as another example, boasted some of the worlds' first restaurants and had large water canals to bolster transportation and communication. China's history, in my opinion, isn't really war-centric - more so, it flips between war and peace with the good old dynastic rise and fall.

But, well, that's how I see it. I think the Art of War thing just about falls into the stereotype of Asians knowledgeable about martial arts and all that.
Obviously UAs aren't reflective of the civs' greatest achievements (otherwise Germany would've gotten something else, for instance), but I frankly don't see military achievements as something that a normal person would associate with China - if anything, they'd think of its "ancient" and "traditional" culture, which is what I'm getting at.

I love how our different cultural backgrounds sway our perspective on history (makes it more fun!)
When you ask "Why did everyone from Europe want to get to China?" My answer would be, because of the spice trade; China had items not available in Europe. I agree that China has had a prosperous history and has been a cultural powerhouse for the region... but I think what the war ability is trying to bring out is the Civil War history (not driven from the martial arts stereotype). You referred to "dynastic rise and fall", but what goes with that is the power struggle that China went through with each. Getting "Great Generals" seems a good way to portray that. Due to the way the game works however, it ends up becoming an offensive ability... perhaps the problem is that "Great Generals" should be more useful for non-militaristic civs?

 

[Vandal Thorne]

I'm going to agree with codepoet, China is fine as is. On the whole alot of what I'm seeing is a weird veering towards political correctness, especially with regards to Germany.

I agree their UA sucks and like the suggestion that military buildings provide +1 Production but I see no reason to change their second UU for a UB ot UI. Now I would prefer that the Landsknecht be swapped out for an Artillery UU but that is to better reflect how Germany was very much the driving, cutting edge force at the beginning of both World Wars. For better or worse, Germany was a key factor in the shape of the first half of the 20th century.

For Japan also, I would not veer away from their "warmonger" nature. I might be tempted to buff Japan's Bushido so that military buildings provide +1 Culture. I think Zero's getting some type of damage bonus that combos with the Kamikaze - autocracy ideology branch might also be appropriate.

A key change I'd like to see made to game play is for both Great Admirals and Great Generals to be able to deal and absorb damage, like regular combat units. I'd also like to see the Great Admiral's healing ability replaced with some type of coastal tile improvement, such as coastal fortress or port.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I love how our different cultural backgrounds sway our perspective on history (makes it more fun!)

Indeed. If you ask anyone from the east Asian cultural sphere (i.e. Korea, Japan, Vietnam, even parts of Central Asia), we all can't deny the impact of China on our cultures, whether we love or hate the Chinese.

When you ask "Why did everyone from Europe want to get to China?" My answer would be, because of the spice trade; China had items not available in Europe. I agree that China has had a prosperous history and has been a cultural powerhouse for the region... but I think what the war ability is trying to bring out is the Civil War history (not driven from the martial arts stereotype). You referred to "dynastic rise and fall", but what goes with that is the power struggle that China went through with each. Getting "Great Generals" seems a good way to portray that. Due to the way the game works however, it ends up becoming an offensive ability... perhaps the problem is that "Great Generals" should be more useful for non-militaristic civs?

I suppose that makes more sense to me, and though I still disagree with that choice for China I can sort of see the logic behind that, though it is a rather roundabout and odd way of going about it to me given, as you say, Great Generals tend to be a more offensive ability in my opinion.

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

One of the main reasons i've seen to justify a change for various civs is because it doesn't represent all their history, and i don't think this is valid. You can say it about EVERY civilization. The UA isn't complex enough to give a fair representation of every aspect of every iteration of a civilization. What it is supposed to do is give it a flavour of at least part of this. In China's case, this is it's development of tactical warfare and long military history. In India's case, it's taken from what some would argue the more contemporary issue and potential blessing of a large population. There is nothing wrong with either of these as representations of the civilization, they are both relevant to some part of their history. It is not offensive to choose these over some other aspect, though it can by matter of opinion be a poor choice. At the end of the day, there will be future civ games with different interpretations of the civs and different abilities. This is what we have in 5, and it is not an issue.

If a civ is imbalanced, this is a problem. Again however this can only be a problem when it's taken into consideration alongside the other unique aspects. They are balanced as a threesome, individually arguments for their strength or weakness are irrelevant as they are designed to balance how a civ plays over the entire course of a game. They are all tested for balance pre release and constantly tested post release and none have proven to be so drastically imbalanced enough to call for a complete change outside an expansion pack, and prior to BNW, only minor changes were even implemented in G&K. The balance of civilisations is not half bad, can never be perfect, and will always be subject to a certain players opinions generated from their play styles. I can play exceptionally well with England for example, i love them.

One final problem is if a civ seems stale or uninteresting to play. This is much more an issue of opinion, but if a civ is overwhelmingly unpopular then something may need to change. I am actually quite happy with every civ at the moment, except India. I don't think it's imbalanced, the UA is incredibly good if played right but perhaps not so much with the new culture victory, who knows? But the UU is a dull replacement for a vastly unpopular unit and the UB is an ok replacement for an underused building. My opinion on India is probably vastly biased by the fact that i want multiple representation of India rather than the modern one, but i can't help feeling playing India is one of the most "plain" experiences in the game. I would welcome a change to make it feel more of a unique experience.

 

[fat_tonle]

For Germany, I would like to see the Landsknecht being kicked out and being replaced it the UI: Autobahn.

Available after Combustion.
Upgrades Roads/Railroads.
Bonus: 50% more movement points than Railroads, 20% tourism for cities connected with capital.

Bans any noobie Warlord players from Civfanatics once they slect this improvement.

 

[Remmert]

Bans any noobie Warlord players from Civfanatics once they slect this improvement.

Can you explain that to me?
It's still a late-game improvement, what can bump transport troops (great in combination with the Panzer) and trade-units and boosts some tourism (if its going to happen of course)
In the early game Germany still can be a barb-hunter, but it could be a late flower in trade and tourism. Like Germany is now, goods can be transported fast, because Germany has a very dense highwaysystem, tourists can move fast (and love to race around), because the most part of the Autobahn don't have speedlimits.
And during WW2 it was used to transport tank-divisions.

I believe the Autobahn would be an great addition to Germany instead of the lousy Landsknecht

 

[fat_tonle]

Can you explain that to me?
It's still a late-game improvement, what can bump transport troops (great in combination with the Panzer) and trade-units and boosts some tourism (if its going to happen of course)
In the early game Germany still can be a barb-hunter, but it could be a late flower in trade and tourism. Like Germany is now, goods can be transported fast, because Germany has a very dense highwaysystem, tourists can move fast (and love to race around), because the most part of the Autobahn don't have speedlimits.
And during WW2 it was used to transport tank-divisions.

I believe the Autobahn would be an great addition to Germany instead of the lousy Landsknecht

It was a lame joke... carry on with the ideas.

 

[phaethon16]

I think Russia's ability should extend to include oil. That may be a little too good, but since one of Siberia's most important resources is oil, it makes some sense. It doesn't need to happen, I just think it makes sense.

 

[Arachnofiend]

Songhai. their UA pretty bad and if you disable barbarians you have nothing.

It probably isn't a good idea to base your criticisms on non-standard play. And even then the UA gives Songhai units the ability to attack over a river with no penalty, which is a pretty significant bonus.

I think the only thing Songhai really needs to at least be a good civ is for the MandyCav promotion to carry over upon upgrade. Give them that and they'll be fine, not top tier by any means but fine.

 

[Calouste]

I think Russia's ability should extend to include oil. That may be a little too good, but since one of Siberia's most important resources is oil, it makes some sense. It doesn't need to happen, I just think it makes sense.

The main thing I'd like to see changed for Russia is to make the Krepost a replacement of the Wall rather than Barracks. Walls have some use in most early cities, barracks only have an early use in the capital usually.