What is a Nazi?

[amadeus]

Many are the reasons claimed by Hitler for his hatred of Jews.

I want to clarify on two points:

First is that I was talking about the general myth that existed rather than specific to Hitler; the “stab in the back” theory existed before his entry into politics.

Second, and by no means a justification for anything that followed—but I believe the scholarly debate is still open about when Hitler became Hitler rather than the garden variety antisemite that was not uncommon in Europe at the time. At present, I think the consensus remains that Hitler’s “developed” antisemitism came after WWI and before writing Mein Kampf, with Hitler trying to jazz up his antisemite cred in the book.

 

[AmazonQueen]

I want to clarify on two points:

First is that I was talking about the general myth that existed rather than specific to Hitler; the “stab in the back” theory existed before his entry into politics.

Second, and by no means a justification for anything that followed—but I believe the scholarly debate is still open about when Hitler became Hitler rather than the garden variety antisemite that was not uncommon in Europe at the time. At present, I think the consensus remains that Hitler’s “developed” antisemitism came after WWI and before writing Mein Kampf, with Hitler trying to jazz up his antisemite cred in the book.

Although the stab in the back theory was just as much directed at the Social Democrats who took over the government just before the end of the war, and was an attempt by the German military and conservatives to shift blame for defeat from themselves.

 

[Gorbles]

It could be in the rest of the post? Like everything else, racism isn't something you arrive at from a singular venue.
There is a wealth of information on how the anti-jewish stance appeared and then progressed; it's not something one can diminish to a single point/one size fits all.

Just not seeing how we got to "and this is how we offer reasons why Hitler was a racist", that's all

 

[Lexicus]

the “stab in the back” theory existed before his entry into politics.

A minor quibble, but the stab in the back legend actually started at pretty much exactly the same time that Hitler got into politics. One of the legend's most prominent exponents, Erich Ludendorff, was an early political ally of Hitler's. That said, it was not an invention of Hitler and had wide currency across the whole German far-right, not just the Nazis.

 

[Zardnaar]

Hitler being a racist is kinda beyond dispute lol.

When he became "Hitler" is interesting I suppose from an academic PoV.

 

[amadeus]

A minor quibble, but the stab in the back legend actually started at pretty much exactly the same time that Hitler got into politics. One of the legend's most prominent exponents, Erich Ludendorff, was an early political ally of Hitler's. That said, it was not an invention of Hitler and had wide currency across the whole German far-right, not just the Nazis.

That would be a minor quibble! It depends on how you want to define Hitler getting into politics. I mean, he was active in the DAP almost immediately after the war, but I was thinking in terms of prominence rather than activity. Putting it to numbers, I’d say the stab-myth came pretty much right after the war, and Hitler rose to fame (infamy?) in 1923 even though he was an active member and speaker.

I did not mean to imply that Hitler started the myth; it was already present at the time of the attempted Kapp putsch in 1920.

 

[Fippy]

Hitler being a racist is kinda beyond dispute lol.

When he became "Hitler" is interesting I suppose from an academic PoV.

I think the 2 main reasons are his drugs / meds consume (after being injured in ww1), and the crippling capitulation to France (Versailles treaty). He was driven by erasing that "shame" (which was also what he did asap after capturing Paris). And ofc his personal health was declining fast (both mental and physical), which fuelled more aggression towards any enemies of germany (again from his pov).

 

[Samson]

Are climate change deniers the real nazis?

The Archbishop of Canterbury has "unequivocally" apologised for comparing politicians who fail to act on climate change to those who "ignored what was happening in Nazi Germany".

[He said] it was "never right to make comparisons with the atrocities brought by the Nazis".​

 

[EnglishEdward]

So our AoC has put his foot in his mouth again.

IIRC it was mainly the US politicians (out of those with influence) who ignored what was happening in Nazi Germany due to their isolationist policy.

As Joe Biden has shown up in person and is trying to get remedial measures through the US congress it seems poorly directed.

 

[Kyriakos]

So our AoC has put his foot in his mouth again.

IIRC it was mainly the US politicians (out of those with influence) who ignored what was happening in Nazi Germany due to their isolationist policy.

As Joe Biden has shown up in person and is trying to get remedial measures through the US congress it seems poorly directed.

I think Britain's stance towards Germany up to the point it invaded Poland, was a far more striking example of ignoring what Germany was doing. The re-militarization of the Rhein lands was one of the episodes where neither Britain nor France did crap, likewise for the annexation of parts of Czechoslovakia.
Your prime minister at the time even argued that Britain's pledge to protect Poland's autonomy didn't mean Britain was obligated to ensure Poland would keep all territories it had; just that it wouldn't be entirely annexed.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Britain was not ignoring what Germany was doing.

It was re-arming rapidly, despite being heavily in debt to the USA.

The Poles had had a war with the USSR and gained territory occupied by various nationalities including eastern Jews.
It made no sense for Britain to guarantee military gains against the USSR without a large army and a route to defend it.

The so called appeasement policy was a child of US isolation policy.

 

[Hygro]

I saw some cops that weren’t Nazis. These brave, restrained officers deserve medals:

Even better with sound on https://www.reddit.com/r/HolUp/comments/qocieb/bro_finna_get_the_death_penalty/

 

[Aiken_Drumn]

So our AoC has put his foot in his mouth again.

I really wish this fool didn't get airtime. He doesn't deserve it, and his position doesn't either in 2021.

 

[amadeus]

Can’t the Queen just put him on the slow boat to China? I would!

 

[Samson]

All she need to say is "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" and someone would deal with it.

 

[aelf]

Um, considering the effects of climate change might include mass death that disproportionately affects certain groups of people, it's not an entirely inappropriate comparison. But of course boomers who pooh-pooh climate change to begin with are going to get offended.

 

[stinkubus]

I think the 2 main reasons are his drugs / meds consume (after being injured in ww1), and the crippling capitulation to France (Versailles treaty). He was driven by erasing that "shame" (which was also what he did asap after capturing Paris). And ofc his personal health was declining fast (both mental and physical), which fuelled more aggression towards any enemies of germany (again from his pov).

Fascism needs an enemy to rationalize its own politics. Hitler's state of mind and well being would've been irrelevant. The legitimacy of the entire regime was at stake.

Adolph Hitler, as an individual, did not need to exist for any of the 20th century to unfold the way it did. If Hitler dies on the battlefield in WWI that conflict still devastates Europe, the ascending, world-wide labor movement would still largely have been crushed, widespread banking failures in the 20s and 30s would still give us the great depression, the radical movements of the 30s would still have formed, and the revanchists would still have formed their fascist parties in response.

No matter what they would've called themselves or who led them, something just like Hitler's Nazi party would've come to power in Germany. The exact circumstances might not have been the same but war in Europe was inevitable as the existing power structures were losing their legitimacy and either being voted out like in Spain or overthrown, like in Russia.

This is not meant as a slight to the poster I'm replying to, but I think that great man theories of history are mostly bunk. Historical materialism is far more useful of a lens because even in a world without Hitler all the institutions which brought him to power would still exist.

 

[raystuttgart]

@stinkubus

I generally agree that WW2 was not just caused by "one man" (i.e. Adolf Hitler).
At some point a conflict had to arise due to discontent due to impoverishment or caused by conflicting ideologies.

And since Germany is also in the central of Europe and was heavily struggling in these days I am convinced it would have been right in the middle of that war.
However I disagree that WW2 had needed to be started by Germany if Adolf Hitler would not have lived, because other countries had similar problems.

• Some other German leader might have waited for a cheap excuse given by another country instead of being the first aggresssor.
  
• Some other German leader might have turned Germany into a communist country instead of a fascist one.
  
• Some other German leader might not have focussed all his hate on the jews, but maybe on some other minority.
• ...

Fascist were strong, communists were strong, monarchist were strong, ... and even republicans and democrats had a chance.
It was definitely unpredictable that it had to be the National Socialists that would grab the power in Germany.
It was also definitely unpredictable that Germany after just having lost WW1 would need to become the aggressor in WW2.

---

So yes, it is way too easy to justify or explain all that happened by "Adolf Hitler" as a person.
And yes, the societies in Europe were boiling full of discontent and chances were very high that at one point violence would errupt in Europe as a "2nd world war".
And yes, the war that was coming would definitely also been a bloody war of ideologies fought between extremists and moderates soon running out of control.
And yes, in that case it was extremely likely that Germany would have been right in the middle due to its geography and most likely also becoming an aggressor.

---

But if Adolf Hitler would not have existed, Germany could e.g. have turned communist instead of nationalist and maybe have joined forces with the Soviets.
In such a scenario maybe Europeans might not even have united by a war between races or nations but a Europe wide revolution of the proletariat against the elite.

In such a scenario Europe as we know it today might never have existed and the EU as we know it may have been part of a "United Soviet Nations".
In such a sencario the World as we know it today might never have existed and we would either have experienced World War 3 or would still experience a dark and grim Cold War.

---

Adolf Hitler was definitely a bloody crazy lunatic and is righteously considered the "most evil person that ever lived". But it was not all "just one person" either.
And I also think that we were lucky in the end that the Nazis lost the War. In an alternative or fictional Universe things might have gone a lot worse.

Nobody sane would really like to live in this fictional world were the Nazis had won.
And nobody sane would really like to live in a fictional world where all of Europe had fallen under communist rule either.

---

It is interesting to speculate but we will simply never know.
Adolf Hitler had a big part of it definitely, but without the disconent he could use he would have had no success either.

Still we should not go for the easy excuse "It was all just Adolf Hitler." either.
People were discontent and thus easily could be convinced by any "rat catcher" that came along.

You find enough examples of such "rat catchers" being successful even today.
Otherwise the stupidity we see in world wide politics is not really explainable.

 

[Lexicus]

Um, considering the effects of climate change might include mass death that disproportionately affects certain groups of people, it's not an entirely inappropriate comparison. But of course boomers who pooh-pooh climate change to begin with are going to get offended.

Yeah, them and Zionists who believe it's only appropriate to mention the Holocaust while defending Israeli war crimes.

 

[Lexicus]

Fascism needs an enemy to rationalize its own politics. Hitler's state of mind and well being would've been irrelevant. The legitimacy of the entire regime was at stake.

Adolph Hitler, as an individual, did not need to exist for any of the 20th century to unfold the way it did. If Hitler dies on the battlefield in WWI that conflict still devastates Europe, the ascending, world-wide labor movement would still largely have been crushed, widespread banking failures in the 20s and 30s would still give us the great depression, the radical movements of the 30s would still have formed, and the revanchists would still have formed their fascist parties in response.

No matter what they would've called themselves or who led them, something just like Hitler's Nazi party would've come to power in Germany. The exact circumstances might not have been the same but war in Europe was inevitable as the existing power structures were losing their legitimacy and either being voted out like in Spain or overthrown, like in Russia.

This is not meant as a slight to the poster I'm replying to, but I think that great man theories of history are mostly bunk. Historical materialism is far more useful of a lens because even in a world without Hitler all the institutions which brought him to power would still exist.

My own study of the period leads me to believe that without Hitler it's highly unlikely the Nazis ever take power in Germany. In fact I'd say it's not clear that, without Hitler, the Nazis would ever have grown beyond a relatively small Bavarian movement. That's not to say there would have been no militaristic/revanchist regime in Germany but I am not at all sure it looks very similar to Nazi Germany and to the World War II with which we're familiar without the person of Hitler.