What is capitalism ?

[mdwh]

I think you are under the illusion that people only do jobs they want to.

When there are job shortages and you are desperate for cash you are forced into doing any job available.

Yes, people are "forced" to work, in that you need to eat and so on. But I would love to hear of a system where people don't have to do any work, or they only have to do work they enjoy?

 

[I am the Future]

Capitalism is the worst system we could have, except for all the rest.

I couldnt put it any better.

I think it was Churchill the said, "Democracy is a terrible goverment, it is just the best one we have come up with so far."

 

[ComradeDavo]

Yes, people are "forced" to work, in that you need to eat and so on. But I would love to hear of a system where people don't have to do any work, or they only have to do work they enjoy?

You can create a system within capitalism where their is wider choice of jobs. At current this is not the case in many places, and thus I think people should be guarenteed a decent minimum wage to avoid exploitation.

 

[Gangor]

The core principle of capitalism is that everyone should be free to enjoy the fruits of their own labour. Conversly, communism is that everyone should be free to enjoy the fruits of someone else's labour. All current political systems (afaik) are some combination of these principles.

 

[Irish Caesar]

You can create a system within capitalism where their is wider choice of jobs. At current this is not the case in many places, and thus I think people should be guarenteed a decent minimum wage to avoid exploitation.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Jobs depend on education and training in the job. The suggestion here might be to lower cost of tuition at colleges and universities...but that's all I can get from this.

 

[Ayatollah So]

Capitalism was founded upon stealing land out from under peasants and forcing them into the cities, where they and their descendants had no choice but to die or to accept horrid living standards and work demands. Mercifully, this is not really the case in the developed nations any more, thanks to "Marxists" as you would call them, but this exploitative and coercive element still runs through capitalism.

I'm still on page 2 of this thread, but Taliesin comes close to expressing the reason I voted "other". Markets are the greatest thing since sliced bread IMHO, but capitalism as we know and ?love? it is more than markets.

A lot seems to depend on whether "capitalism" refers to some ideal theory or a real-world phenomenon.

 

[ComradeDavo]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Jobs depend on education and training in the job. The suggestion here might be to lower cost of tuition at colleges and universities...but that's all I can get from this.

I am talking about Capitalism on a global scale.

Whilst I do support abolishing tuition fee's what I actually meant was that as many people do not have a variety of jobs to choose from (for example, alot of people in the third world) they have little choice but to take the poorly paid jobs in sweat shops and alike. So what I was saying is that companies should be made to pay and treat their workers better. It's not like these workers can actually leave their job to find something better!

 

[carniflex]

The core principle of capitalism is that everyone should be free to enjoy the fruits of their own labour.

The core principle of capitalism is that the shareholders are free to enjoy the fruits of the workers labour.

The utopia where everyone is free to enjoy the fruits of their own labour, id est where exploitation is abolished, is called socialism.

 

[Irish Caesar]

Whilst I do support abolishing tuition fee's what I actually meant was that as many people do not have a variety of jobs to choose from (for example, alot of people in the third world) they have little choice but to take the poorly paid jobs in sweat shops and alike. So what I was saying is that companies should be made to pay and treat their workers better. It's not like these workers can actually leave their job to find something better!

Okay, that's true...

But the only way to be able to get better jobs is through education. Ideally, the whole world would be educated with some sort of skills, which would give them access to better jobs.

 

[Aphex_Twin]

From the beginning:
What is inherently evil about free exchange of goods?

 

[luiz]

The utopia where everyone is free to enjoy the fruits of their own labour, id est where exploitation is abolished, is called socialism.

Let's follow that line of thought.
So we're in a socialistic society. There are no emploeyers and employees, everyone is free to enjoy the fruits of one's labour.

One particular labourer however is very very good at doing something, he came up with a whole new method or something along those lines. He decides that with some help he could achieve something really great, so he decides to offer money for some people to work under his supervison using his enhanced techniques. Some people refuse his offer, since they figured theye were better off working for themselves. But others decide that they can more money that way, so they accept.

The above scenario can only lead to 2 consequences:
a)You prohibit people from working for that guy, in which case you are not a free society at all.
b)You end up with employer and employees, bourgeouis and proletarians. Capitalism.

 

[Dominus Romae]

Let's follow that line of thought.
So we're in a socialistic society. There are no emploeyers and employees, everyone is free to enjoy the fruits of one's labour.

One particular labourer however is very very good at doing something, he came up with a whole new method or something along those lines. He decides that with some help he could achieve something really great, so he decides to offer money for some people to work under his supervison using his enhanced techniques. Some people refuse his offer, since they figured theye were better off working for themselves. But others decide that they can more money that way, so they accept.

The above scenario can only lead to 2 consequences:
a)You prohibit people from working for that guy, in which case you are not a free society at all.
b)You end up with employer and employees, bourgeouis and proletarians. Capitalism.

There is no way of making everyone equal, nor making everything state-owned. There should be a balance between state property and private property, and I think neo-liberalism is extremist because it sometimes advocates the total independence of the economy from the State. That's the principle of chaos and crisis. There should be state intervention, first because the economy is an important basis of a country. Second, because you must control the will and ambition of many capitalists by making sure they will respect environmental rights and labour rights. Third, because sometimes neo-liberalism advocates private social security, health and education. These are public rights, period.

 

[Gangor]

The core principle of capitalism is that the shareholders are free to enjoy the fruits of the workers labour.

The utopia where everyone is free to enjoy the fruits of their own labour, id est where exploitation is abolished, is called socialism.

You or I are free to buy shares in any public company we wish. Indeed, if you have a retirement plan, you probably already have.

Who is exploiting who?

 

[Gangor]

There should be state intervention, first because the economy is an important basis of a country.

The concept of "countries" or "nations" is becoming increasingly diluted these days. Rightfully so. If there are no nations there are no wars.

Second, because you must control the will and ambition of many capitalists by making sure they will respect environmental rights and labour rights.

This doesn't require the government to own anything.

Third, because sometimes neo-liberalism advocates private social security, health and education. These are public rights, period.

These "rights" still have to be paid for somehow. The liberal argument is that the funds for this should not be raised by forcibly taking money from citizens, since not having your stuff stolen is also a "right".

 

[Irish Caesar]

Third, because sometimes neo-liberalism advocates private social security, health and education. These are public rights, period.

No, they're not.

Education should be universal in order to create equality of opportunity. I'll go along with that.

Social security, on the other hand, if you mean a system similar to that in the USA (and I'm sure, many other countries...) like a retirement pension from the government, is not a "public right." It works for a time, but sooner or later, it only drives the government deeper and deeper into debt, crushing the system. States have existed without it, and they certainly need to alter the current system because it's headed in the red ink direction.

 

[carniflex]

You prohibit people from working for that guy, in which case you are not a free society at all.

Working for a guy is certainly not freedom.
Working for a guy is slavery.
Freedom is working for yourself or for a democratically ruled collectivity.
That is not prohibited under socialism, if you want to know.

 

[carniflex]

You or I are free to buy shares in any public company we wish. Indeed, if you have a retirement plan, you probably already have.
Who is exploiting who?

The shareholder is exploiting the worker.
Havnt i said it earlier ?

 

[carniflex]

From the beginning:
What is inherently evil about free exchange of goods?

Nothing a priori. Why this question ?

 

[Irish Caesar]

Working for a guy is certainly not freedom.
Working for a guy is slavery.
Freedom is working for yourself or for a democratically ruled collectivity.
That is not prohibited under socialism, if you want to know.

Choosing to work for a guy is freedom. It's not slavery; the guy pays you for your work. And if you choose, after working for the guy for a while, that you don't want to do it anymore, you resign. Nothing slavery-ish about it.

 

[Communisto]

we shouldn't have to work for fear of dying if we dont. We should work for the betterment of community