What is communism ?

What is communism ?


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Methodology is the root of problems of Marxism. I keep citing Karl Popper simply because he was the most prominent thinker to question dialectics, and he wrote a lot better than me! His thoughts can be digested this way: dialectics can explain everything; given a prediction made with dialectics, you cannot know how likely it will realise, because one can construct an opposite prediction just as convincingly. If Marx said that capitalism is doomed, you might as well believe capitalism will survive quite well instead, because you can prove that using the same methodology, just like the later Marxist analyses did, and I'm sure future Marxists would keep doing. Hence, any prediction made using dialectics has no practical value.

Now, Marxism is not less credible than other philosophical schools. Traditional philosophy contains no lack of nutty ideas. All in all Marxism is probably one of the sanest. Marxism however differ from other philosophical schools in that it claims to be scientific, i.e. it's inherently superior to all other schools, and is as plausible as science. That is why it's dangerous. Basically, if a philosopher tells you if you close your eyes the world would disappear, you would not believe him one iota. Marx however insisted that his words were as trustworthy as a physicist's, so if he told you the world would disappear, you better listen. If you don't, you are an enemy of the people. Such arrogance is rare in the history of philosophy.

Apart from the fact that philosophy is not nutty just because it's not strictly scientific, there are plenty of Marxists who do not hold that Marxism is a science. Marx himself did not hold that belief for all of his prolific life.

Also, the creation of narratives is not something that science is free of. The real distinction that science has is the requirement of empirical evidence. Yet evidence often needs to be interpreted, which means science is more rigorous but not foolproof. In any case, to charge that criticism can be used to explain any development and is therefore practically useless ignores the fact that it can actually tell us something useful and interesting. Take Habermas' historical account of the creation and dissolution of the bourgeois public sphere. Do I buy his account? To a large extent, no. But do I think that it's therefore not very useful? Not at all.

Only people who have not studied much think in such black-and-white terms.

Alassius said:
I'd appreciate it if you can enlighten me.

Why? Their arguments are fairly lengthy and sophisticated. The problem of trying to simplify them to a few sentences is that it will inevitably pepper those sentences with catchphrases that will immediately put logs in your eyes. It's not going to be helpful at all.
 
I just think this is the place to mention Josef Popper-Lynkeus's model economy ("Apparently a distant relative of Karl Popper"),
To this issue - believing that food and housing (for example) should be state sponsored, so noone will be homeless or starving (although everyone will have to work a few years just to make that possible - the conflict between freedom and the basic needs)

This is still a very basic communist humanistic approach, which I support.
 
Communism is most certainly only A in theory.

In practice to mantain a communist state you need one party to control the masses and quell discontent so B springs up with it.

Communism never ever leads for a succesful state in the long runs.

Even the last leader of the Soviet Union Gorbachev tried to enact market reforms shortly before its collapse to counter its ineffecient ecnomy. By enacting these reforms and opening up the political process they destroyed their own grip on society.

Communism is ineffecient and inflexible due to its political nature. It simply does not work as an economic system and an educated person today who has studied how communists states tried to succeed can come to the conclusion that its a failed ideology.

The second you start to push market reforms to strengthen the stale communist economy you cease being communist.

This is why China is no longer communist but a mixed economy ruled by an single party remnant from its communist days. China still clings on to its oppressive model for controlling its society from its communist days.
 
Communism is most certainly only A in theory.
Actually, in theory, communism is anarchistic, and so by definition non-centrally planned. What you're referring to is the form of socialism advocated by statist communists, which is an altogether different thing.
 
Actually, in theory, communism is anarchistic, and so by definition non-centrally planned. What you're referring to is the form of socialism advocated by statist communists, which is an altogether different thing.

Karl Marx must of been incredibly naive when he envisioned communism as the next step in human economic reform that it would be stateless. If anyone can define the theory it would be him. Is that really what he thought would happen?
 
Karl Marx must of been incredibly naive when he envisioned communism as the next step in human economic reform that it would be stateless. If anyone can define the theory it would be him. Is that really what he thought would happen?
Well, that depends on how you interpret his intermediate stage of "socialism". Some would have it as a stateless society similar to anarcho-syndicalism or anarcho-collectivism, some see it as authoritarian statism, and others see it as every colour in between. Marx seemed to sit somewhere in the middle, advocating the sort of parliamentarianism which the Left-Communists frequently rejected, and the sort of grass-roots popular revolution that the vanguardists viewed as impossible.

Also, there's the question of what the "next step in human economic reform" means. Marx himself was uncertain as to how far capitalism had left to go, and what it would look like by the end form, and Engels was pretty confident that it needed to become a whole lot more statist. Neither saw capitalism as absolute, having seen it mutate within their own lifetimes.

And, for the record, Marx would have unconditionally rejected the notion that he had any personal "ownership" of Marxist, seeing it as a scientific attempt to discern the nature of human society from empirical observation (whatever you may think of either his observations or conclusions). In this, he and Rand differed greatly. ;)
 
Speaking of Engels, is it a Bad Thing that I've read some of his punditry on military theory of his time, but none of his ideological writings? I feel like this is kind of like reading Playboy for the articles.
 
My point was that Libertarian Marxist ideologies, such as Luxembergism and Council Communism, reject the need for formal leaders or centralised governments, so the flaws which you mention, which all exist within a statist system, are not relevant, or at least not directly so. They're honestly more like Anarchism than they are like Leninism.

And my point is that whatever you believe as an ivory tower scholar, when you have the power, inevitably you will have to deal with such problems. Authoritarianism is the nature answer to all of them, especially if one has the predisposition of thinking he knows better than others. If Marx were to lead the October Revolution, I'm fairly sure he'd roll out similar policies as Lenin did, though he might be able to justify them better. As I've argued in other threads, both Marx himself and his theory were authoritarian to the bones. That was because he had very different interpretations of democracy and liberty.

Pure anarchism works out in the real world not unlike Leninism. Unchecked power takes over the system in both cases. The most obvious example would be Somalia, where the warlords run the country, and the people barely have any rights. Modern doctrine of limited government does not solve all of the questions I raised, but it offers pretty strong guards against things that may go horribly wrong. I don't see how democratic socialism can offer such guards.



Apart from the fact that philosophy is not nutty just because it's not strictly scientific, there are plenty of Marxists who do not hold that Marxism is a science. Marx himself did not hold that belief for all of his prolific life.

Also, the creation of narratives is not something that science is free of. The real distinction that science has is the requirement of empirical evidence. Yet evidence often needs to be interpreted, which means science is more rigorous but not foolproof. In any case, to charge that criticism can be used to explain any development and is therefore practically useless ignores the fact that it can actually tell us something useful and interesting. Take Habermas' historical account of the creation and dissolution of the bourgeois public sphere. Do I buy his account? To a large extent, no. But do I think that it's therefore not very useful? Not at all.

Only people who have not studied much think in such black-and-white terms.

Well, if you think like that, it's good for you. Marx on the other hand would denounce Habermas as much as he denounced pretty much everyone else apart from Engels. That's his problem, and that's why people who do not have black-and-white views must be resolutely against him: in his world there's not much place for anyone else.

You should read some Popper, or indeed Marx. The latter's claim to scientificity was precisely that he was postulating from empirical evidence - records of past history. Popper's counter-argument was that empirical evidence does not prove a theory as Marx thought it would. It merely means the theory works for a particular case. Popper's original idea was to judge a theory on its predictive power, rather than on how many verifying evidences you can find. For dialectics, everything in the world can be interpreted in such a way as to verify the thesis-antithesis-synthesis circle. But that means its predictive power is precisely zero, for the reason I mentioned in the last post. Basically, only if a theory makes a somewhat dangerous prediction - that can refute the theory if it did not realise - the theory is meaningful. The fact that science is not infallible is not a concession, but the very reason it is rigorous: it's not dogmatic. If Newton's mechanics is proved wrong in certain circumstances, it's wrong in those circumstances, and scientists don't preach it as the absolute truth.

Why? Their arguments are fairly lengthy and sophisticated. The problem of trying to simplify them to a few sentences is that it will inevitably pepper those sentences with catchphrases that will immediately put logs in your eyes. It's not going to be helpful at all.

I'll let you off the hook on this one :)


Actually, in theory, communism is anarchistic, and so by definition non-centrally planned. What you're referring to is the form of socialism advocated by statist communists, which is an altogether different thing.

This is a point I wanted to address in another thread but haven't gotten to. I think "communism is anarchistic" is a misunderstanding, more so than thinking communism is authoritarian. Marx almost assuredly did not want small, isolated collectives. He wanted to abolish division of labour, which is only possible when an economy is large enough to accommodate all kinds of trades. In addition, he did talk about "society regulates the general production", in the sense that if you were hunting in the morning, and you want to go fishing in the afternoon, the "society" somehow magically arranges production so that we'd still have an abundance of meat, regardless of what you do.

Here is the tricky part: Marx regarded the bourgeoisie government not as a regulator and social welfare provider, as today's left wing sees it, but as purely an instrument of class oppression. That was what he meant to abolish. Marx did not want anarchism as in everyone for himself. He wanted anarchism as in nobody has more power than others, so that nobody is in a position to exploit anyone else (note how similar this line of thought is to the modern libertarians). Such a society is not incompatible with central planning, if you accept his assumption that planning is inherently trivial, that is, the best plan is manifest. Unlike today's leftists who moan about capitalism's ruthless efficiency, he was actually arguing that capitalism is not efficient enough. The bourgeoisie government was in fact the reason you could not have proper planning, because it's controlled by, well, the bourgeoisie, who are by virtue of their class short sighted, hence all the commercial crises. If this government is abolished, and production is regulated by the proletarians, who by virtue of their class are far sighted, and know what's the best for everyone, we'd obviously release a lot of new productive forces. This is the source of his abundance, and also what he meant when he said advanced productive forces (thesis) and obsolete relations of production (antithesis) would lead to a more advanced relations of production, which in turn boosts productive forces even further (synthesis). But this is not the disorder as we would understand an anarchy.
 
And my point is that whatever you believe as an ivory tower scholar, when you have the power, inevitably you will have to deal with such problems. Authoritarianism is the nature answer to all of them, especially if one has the predisposition of thinking he knows better than others. If Marx were to lead the October Revolution, I'm fairly sure he'd roll out similar policies as Lenin did, though he might be able to justify them better. As I've argued in other threads, both Marx himself and his theory were authoritarian to the bones. That was because he had very different interpretations of democracy and liberty.
Doesn't that assume that all Marxism is Vanguardist? Which is exactly the assertion I was contesting? :huh:

Pure anarchism works out in the real world not unlike Leninism. Unchecked power takes over the system in both cases. The most obvious example would be Somalia, where the warlords run the country, and the people barely have any rights. Modern doctrine of limited government does not solve all of the questions I raised, but it offers pretty strong guards against things that may go horribly wrong. I don't see how democratic socialism can offer such guards.
I honestly have no idea what "pure anarchism" is, but I have more than a sneaking suspicion that you've never glanced at so much as a page of Left-Anarchist theory. :rolleyes:

The same applies to the rest of your response, by the way.
 
Doesn't that assume that all Marxism is Vanguardist? Which is exactly the assertion I was contesting? :huh:

More or less. What I'm saying is that you can afford to be an anarchist only if you do not hold power. When you do, you will find anarchism doesn't solve a lot of problems. The most tempting solution is to become authoritarian. Either you do that, or you lose popular support, or someone with more authoritarian streak usurps your power.

I honestly have no idea what "pure anarchism" is, but I have more than a sneaking suspicion that you've never glanced at so much as a page of Left-Anarchist theory. :rolleyes:

The same applies to the rest of your response, by the way.

Perhaps you can enlighten me better than aelf does?
 
The assertion that Somalia, which is anarchy, is remotely anything like "Anarchism" is one of the most intellectually dishonest claims one can make.

Speaking of Engels, is it a Bad Thing that I've read some of his punditry on military theory of his time, but none of his ideological writings? I feel like this is kind of like reading Playboy for the articles.

It is, because Engels is far more readable than Marx.
 
What did Engles write?
 
Communism basically is a failure.
 
More or less. What I'm saying is that you can afford to be an anarchist only if you do not hold power. When you do, you will find anarchism doesn't solve a lot of problems. The most tempting solution is to become authoritarian. Either you do that, or you lose popular support, or someone with more authoritarian streak usurps your power.
That assumes that there is any reasonable "you" that could usurp power, which Anarchists and Left-Communists contest by demanding that socialism be attained collectively by the entire proletariat. You may dismiss the possibility of non-Vanguardist revolution, but that doesn't mean you can assume that all radicals necessarily pursue it.

Perhaps you can enlighten me better than aelf does?
Left-Anarchists argue that the proletariat is capable of voluntary cooperation and collective self-management, without the need for imposed authority or centralised government. While individual freedom is considered paramount, it is not an Egoist conception of freedom, and so disallows selfish or harmful action, and acknowledges both negative and positive liberties as vital and co-dependent. As such, all actions undertaken would be in reference to the broader context, both on and individual and collective level, so that no one individual or collective of individuals over-stepped their boundaries. Coordination would be possible beyond an immediate level, through a system of bottom-up delegation, and would, ideally, extend to all humans.
Of course, there's different ideas about how this would be achieved, what form it should take, how it will be maintained, etc., but suffice to say it's more complex than "smash the state, and we'll all be fine"- indeed, it is perhaps the most openly labour-intensive form of society yet proposed, demanding the involvement of the entire capable population.
 
Correction: Marxism-Leninism is a failure. Something cannot be a failure which has never been tried. (Anarchist Catalonia is the closest they got, and they had a little problem called Fascists.)
 
Correction: Marxism-Leninism is a failure. Something cannot be a failure which has never been tried. (Anarchist Catalonia is the closest they got, and they had a little problem called Fascists.)

The closest thing the world has to communism is let me guess...Kibbutzim in Israel.:crazyeye:

Communism is also a failure because nobody can actually get there...what's the use of an ideology that cannot be reached in the first place?
 
The closest thing the world has to communism is let me guess...Kibbutzim in Israel.:crazyeye:
And Anarchist Catalonia.

Communism is also a failure because nobody can actually get there...what's the use of an ideology that cannot be reached in the first place?
Funny. People said the same thing about a reborn Jewish State.
We have gotten to Socialism, but it didn't last long enough (due to a fascist invasion) or wide spread enought to transition to Communism.
 
What did Engles write?

By himself, a number of popular defenses of socialism, as well as elaborations on Marxism. He finished the third volume of Capital, and wrote Socialism, Utopian and Scientific, The Origin of Family, Private Property, and the State, and The Condition of the Working Class in England (the work that attracted Marx's attention). His writing style differs from Marx's in the same way that his personality did: where Marx was scholarly and introverted, Engels was down to earth and friendly. There's a reason his biography is called "Marx's General," because it was Engels who most "sold" the idea of Marxist socialism to the working class by talking in plain language about Marx's complicated ideas. Marx focused on the intellectuals and scholars at the First International.

Communism basically is a failure.

Thank you for that informative, productive, and clearly educated post. :rolleyes:
 
And Anarchist Catalonia.


Funny. People said the same thing about a reborn Jewish State.
We have gotten to Socialism, but it didn't last long enough (due to a fascist invasion) or wide spread enought to transition to Communism.

I cant imagine the way to a Communist State (the ideal Communist state) through the force of arms; I can imagine the creation of a Jewish State through the force of arms though.
 
By himself, a number of popular defenses of socialism, as well as elaborations on Marxism. He finished the third volume of Capital, and wrote Socialism, Utopian and Scientific, The Origin of Family, Private Property, and the State, and The Condition of the Working Class in England (the work that attracted Marx's attention). His writing style differs from Marx's in the same way that his personality did: where Marx was scholarly and introverted, Engels was down to earth and friendly. There's a reason his biography is called "Marx's General," because it was Engels who most "sold" the idea of Marxist socialism to the working class by talking in plain language about Marx's complicated ideas. Marx focused on the intellectuals and scholars at the First International.



Thank you for that informative, productive, and clearly educated post. :rolleyes:

Beautiful contrast compared to your post, isnt it?:mischief:
 
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