What is Sharia Law

[El_Machinae]

4:89 (ugh, difficult to quote in context)
"They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper."

90
Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.

89 is commonly believed to be regarding apostates. It's tough to unpack, because this Quran is believed to be during a time when there was an actual Kingdom, so the apostate would also be a traitor. That said, I think it's the apostasy that makes them the traitor, technically.

 

[El_Machinae]

I'd said 'compiled' in the first place! A buncha people got together an decided what would be in the Quran and what wouldn't be. It's easy to assume that a least a bit of this compiling was based on their understanding of the original intent and that the compilers had an intent.

 

[H4run]

4:89 (ugh, difficult to quote in context)
"They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper."

90
Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.

89 is commonly believed to be regarding apostates. It's tough to unpack, because this Quran is believed to be during a time when there was an actual Kingdom, so the apostate would also be a traitor. That said, I think it's the apostasy that makes them the traitor, technically.

This verses is talking about the war between the Muslims and Polytheist for sure, as it told from the beginning of the verse that they desire the Muslims to become as they are (polytheist) so unless he become the believer (which mean repentance and desert to the Muslims) fought them in any place you can found them. But in other surah it mention if the enemy incline toward peace agreement, the Muslims should incline toward it also, as it stated:

But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).(al-Anfal 8:61)

 

[H4run]

I'd said 'compiled' in the first place! A buncha people got together an decided what would be in the Quran and what wouldn't be. It's easy to assume that a least a bit of this compiling was based on their understanding of the original intent and that the compilers had an intent.

The compilation of the Quran is done by the companion of Muhammad (saw) who witness and memorize the Quran itself. They are not the editor of the Quran and the compilation of the Quran begin one year after Muhammad pass away, after the battle of Yamamah which 700 of the hafiz (those who memorize Quran by heart) killed in those battle, and it compile by the remaining Hafiz. And there is a difference between compiling and editing, and bear in mind, those early Muslims are a lots more dedicated and sincerely idealist in their religion then what ever generation that come after them and among them there are lots other who still memorize the Quran. Because beside the Quran is preserve by the written document, it is also keep circulating and preserve in oral, at least during the prayer, loudly 3 times a day, silently 2 times a day. And the Quran also been refer and quoted as a main law to derive ruling and judgement. So the condition of those peoples made them impossible to be oblivious.

 

[El_Machinae]

Compiling and editing are not the same thing, no. But they overlap (as a concept) when people are choosing what to include and what to exclude from a document (and which oral version to use). To assume that the compilers weren't biased by their beliefs is ... counter-intuitive.

 

[H4run]

Compiling and editing are not the same thing, no. But they overlap (as a concept) when people are choosing what to include and what to exclude from a document (and which oral version to use). To assume that the compilers weren't biased by their beliefs is ... counter-intuitive.

keep in mind the compiler is not the Caliph himself who compile and the compiler are not the only groups who memorize the Quran, there are huge others beside them among the ansar and muhajirun, so their authority regarding the compilation is verifiable if there are any mistakes or anything that been falsify or what ever. We are talking about an action that done not 100 years after the Prophet, not 10 years but 1 year.

 

[El_Machinae]

Yes, that's good reason to believe that some of the common phrases were not altered. It's a question of what was included and excluded that I am more questioning.

As well, that 'within the year' bit is a bit of an assumption. The evidence for that is not very strong.

 

[H4run]

As well, that 'within the year' bit is a bit of an assumption. The evidence for that is not very strong.

I don't agree with you, the Quran that we hold right now is the Quran that is compile in the time of Abu Bakr that distributed during the time third Caliph Uthman. Both are in the same generation and also best friend. The Quran that is compile by Abu Bakr goes to Umar goes to Hafsah (his daughter) and goes to Uthman. And all of them live in the same time and same generation.

And 1 years is not only recorded in early Muslims bibliography included Muslims historians, but also after the Prophet pass away, in a year the Muslims fighting War of Rida, which many important Muslims pass away, include the brother of Abu Jandal, big brother of Umar Ibn Khattab, along with 700 hafiz, which mean the number of old Muslims are highly decreasing while numbers of new Muslims who don't have knowledge about Islam is increasing, this reason was the one that stimulated Umar to purpose Abu Bakr to compile the Quran, which he rejected at the first time because there was no such order from the prophet, but later on he agree with it.

 

[classical_hero]

Most Muslim countries are influenced by Sharia but don't have it entirely. In Iraqi Kurdistan alcohol is legal outside of Ramadan and dress codes are not enforced by law. I'm not aware of punishments for adultery but I have heard of women being jailed for moral offenses. I think it might not be strictly legal but it happens. According to the internet homosexual sex is not illegal either but most people think that it is which makes me think it might be a gray area as well.

Social penalties are high and honor killings are not that unusual.

How many are affected by these things?

 

[Oruc]

I don't know I've never looked into it, but Muslims are welcome to it. I don't understand the alarm (same with halal meat), although I could understand Muslims being alarmed at it being watered down. If you're going to follow a religion you should follow the fundamentals and no doubt they look at the state of Christianity in the west with distress.

 

[Tahuti]

same with halal meat

That's just a political sneer directed towards Muslims. They usually include Shechita meat to give the impression that they do it for animal rights.

 

[classical_hero]

The majority of Christians believe in Free Will despite God hardening Pharoah's heart. The books aren't internally consistent.

God never did to Pharoah what he already ha done. He had already made up his mind on the matter. If God was the one to first do that, then you would be right, but often Go allows people to do what they want and he punishes them by the consequences of their action.

I'll stand by the Quran more clearly being 'pro-execution' when it comes to apostates, just like the Bible is more clearly pro-execution of practising homosexuals and idolaters.

Don't forget that adultery was also punishable by death

This verses is talking about the war between the Muslims and Polytheist for sure, as it told from the beginning of the verse that they desire the Muslims to become as they are (polytheist) so unless he become the believer (which mean repentance and desert to the Muslims) fought them in any place you can found them. But in other surah it mention if the enemy incline toward peace agreement, the Muslims should incline toward it also, as it stated:

But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).(al-Anfal 8:61)

They considered Christians as polytheists. The two most hated group in the Quran are first Jews and then Christians. Both are marked for death.

 

[Oruc]

That's just a political sneer directed towards Muslims. They usually include Shechita meat to give the impression that they do it for animal rights.

I suppose, I don't how you can even tell it's halal. I obviously couldn't tell I had been eating horse considering they removed these pies I liked from the shelves after the horse meat "scandal".

 

[classical_hero]

For something to be halal meat, it has to be killed by a Muslim and a special prayer has to be said for it to be halal and sometimes that is not enough now without being certified.

Anyway most people see how Sharia works in those countries that strongly Muslim and don't like what they see.

 

[warpus]

They considered Christians as polytheists. The two most hated group in the Quran are first Jews and then Christians. Both are marked for death.

Uhh... Wait, isn't the Koran the book that tells Muslims to respect Christians and Jews as.. brothers? Or something like that? I'm pretty sure I didn't dream that up.

 

[H4run]

They considered Christians as polytheists. The two most hated group in the Quran are first Jews and then Christians. Both are marked for death.

I don't know what your Church told you about the Muslims and what they believe, we consider you as a peoples of the books, we can't eat meat that is slaughter by any religion except ourselves, Jewish and Christian. Muslims males cannot married with females from any religions except Muslims, Jewish and Christians. Muslims preserve its Christian population and they remain predominant in most of the Muslims region like Syria, Egypt, and many other region at the pre-Islamic period was predominantly Christian, until Abbassid time where the conversion to Islam is increasing. Christian and Jewish have a long line of scholarly tradition in Islamic world, and inhabit city like Damascus, Baghdad, Andalusian, etc, one of the important Jewish scholar that is grow in the Muslim community is Maimonides that later on he become close with Saladin.

We don't approve Jesus as god and we seen that as taking another partner beside God and Islam consider that an unforgivable sin that is correct, as you also see us as infidel with your own believe, Jesus for us is a Prophet of God and son of Mary, not a God himself. However in no way we marked Christian to death, if that is the case the Muslims already done inquisition to Christian population inside of their territory which we are not. In contrary, even not all, many of Christian mark us as anti-Christ, notably John of Damascus is the most early, and genocide us in the Jerusalem, in Spain or even cannibalize us during the Crusades in Syria.

So please, have a correct perspective regarding Muslims. My house mate for years in university was Catholics, I don't remember the time where I want to choke him to death at night, he is that close to me he even stay in my parents house for months. That to say, it is not our view regarding Christian which is problematic, but some of the Christian view (thanks to Orientalism) regarding us and how they assume we view them is quite scary, problematic and horrible.

 

[El_Machinae]

I don't agree with you

Yes, I know it's a matter of faith for you to disagree if someone says "the evidence is not clear". Honestly, the timing of the Quran compiling would have been a lot clearer if Muhammed had just dictated the durned thing instead of having to figure out which chapter refers to which event.

God never did to Pharoah what he already ha done. He had already made up his mind on the matter. If God was the one to first do that, then you would be right, but often Go allows people to do what they want and he punishes them by the consequences of their action.

You really have to squint to get that interpretation! You're reading between the lines on a pretty clear piece of text, Mr. Hero.

Don't forget that adultery was also punishable by death

I didn't. There's debate on how the story with the adulteress should be interpreted, so I didn't include it. I mentioned my two cases, because the case that "they deserve the death penalty" according to the Bible is more clear.

Given that the story is hard to interpret with regards to adultery, it's a pretty big 'ask' to stretch that to other offenses!

 

[Formaldehyde]

Don't forget that adultery was also punishable by death

You mean like what is described in the Bible?

Leviticus 20:10:

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Why would you expect the other Abrahamic religion to be all that much different in that regard?

They considered Christians as polytheists. The two most hated group in the Quran are first Jews and then Christians. Both are marked for death.

Actually they consider both Jews and Christians to be "people of the book", as Haroon pointed out.

So please, have a correct perspective regarding Muslims. My house mate for years in university was Catholics, I don't remember the time where I want to choke him to death at night, he is that close to me he even stay in my parents house for months. That to say, it is not our view regarding Christian which is problematic, but some of the Christian view (thanks to Orientalism) regarding us and how they assume we view them is quite scary, problematic and horrible.

This has already been explained to Classical Hero incessantly. In fact, it seems to be repeated in nearly every thread regarding Islam by both him and others.

 

[Tahuti]

Don't forget that adultery was also punishable by death

Bolded part's for emphasis.

They considered Christians as polytheists. The two most hated group in the Quran are first Jews and then Christians. Both are marked for death.

It's true that Christians are considered polytheists due to their belief in the trinity, since Islam - like Judaism - has a very hard sense of monotheism (the Tawheed) not present in trinitarian Christianity. However, Christians and Jews are also considered to be 'people of the book' as noted by others, and its certianly be better to be a Jew or Christian in Iran than a... Hindu, Zoroastrian or atheist.

 

[Bulldog Bats]

There is a difference between religious beliefs, and when those beliefs are codified into the law of the land. At least in the US, you can have any religious belief you want, but that doesn't mean the government is enforcing it.