What makes a great RPG?

[Ajidica]

Too much talking can be exhausting, but most of the text at character creation or the glossary in PoE can be skipped. Didn't bother me at all.

You can always skip the writing, but PoE had the habit of burying useful bits of knowledge in with the chaff. For example, I do like the mouseover text boxes for elaborate what "Eir Glanfath" or "Nauisiq" (or whatever the places are called). Unfortunately, they put too much stuff in them. Instead of a one-sentence "Nausiq" is a cold tundra where the people live primitive, nomadic lives." which gives me a quick overview of what it is; I get several sentences of slightly jumbled lore. While that may not seem like a huge increase, that repeated for every single glossary term at character creation, for skills, classes, abilities, races, sub races, etc; for me at least, my eyes started to glaze over and I just wanted to play the game.
(Incidentally, I'm starting to think that games with a very detailed character system with front loaded decisions should include a sort of "Play Now" button where you choose from a list of decent premade starting characters. It lets the player just start playing and gives them an idea of what a decently built character looks like.)

One where you control only one player character like Bloodlines, Alpha Protocol or Bethesda games, or the kind where you have several companions like Bioware games or classic JRPGs.

I've been meaning to replay Alpha Protocol as an Sterling Archer type character but never seem to find the time.
Alpha Protocol had the single best dialogue bug I've ever encountered. A dialogue tree for a romantic interest wasn't built correctly which lead to an issue where if you slept with the romantic interest, the screen would tastefully fade to black, but the next scene she would repeat the same dialogue as before the tasteful fade to black endlessly.

Currently my arpg favorite is Path of Exile. My past favorites were Diablo 2 and Skyrim.

Here is POE's current skill tree:

https://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree Once it loads, go full screen and mouse roll in for a close look. Character groups (marauder, witch, duelist etc.) have starting points, but other than that any character can be built around any points it can reach. Typical characters accumulate around 100 points to spend.

To each their own. As soon as I loaded up Path of Exile and glanced at the skill tree, my vision started to blur and I noped out of there faster than I did from HoI3.

 

[Birdjaguar]

To each their own. As soon as I loaded up Path of Exile and glanced at the skill tree, my vision started to blur and I noped out of there faster than I did from HoI3.

Yes, for some the skill tree is very intimidating and first builds are mostly junk if you attempt them on your own. But once you understand how the tree works and how it is integrated in all the other aspects of the game, it becomes quite a powerful and fun aspect of the game. It is not simple. For beginners who don't want to learn by doing, the best approach is to use a guide (many posted on the forums) or get a friend to help.

As far as this thread is concerned, it is one approach to character building. Wolcen takes a different way that is also interesting.

 

[innonimatu]

To me, Morrowind was the perfect game in this respect. Broken mechanics and all, but perfect attention to detail. Clever, funny, absurd, epic, violent, old-testamenty, hinduist-inspired, apparently peyote-induced lore that left me scratching my head still to this day, after about 11 or 12 years

Speaking of Morrowind, what are the current mods and extras that you'd recommend for someone willing to replay that game now? I have some nostalgia for it. Though I confess on replaying I used went go straight to the ebony mine south of Balmora (if I'm recalling correctly...) to quickly get some nice equipment.
Are there good mods or other updates to the game worth installing? I can't recall which I used back then. The story was great, the mechanics... I'll try to resist enchanting stuff in a new game.

 

[Chukchi Husky]

I don't know enough about RPGs to know what makes a good RPG. I've finished Anachronox, Chrono Trigger, Dragon Age: Origins and Awakenings, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Quest IX, Dungeon Siege and Legends of Aranna, Fable: The Lost Chapters, Fallout (with an almost non violent play through), Fallout 2, Heroes of Ruin, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, Oblivion, several Pokémon games, Shadowrun Returns, Sonic Chronicles, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and Knights of the Old Republic 2, The Banner Saga, The Bard's Tale, Torchlight. I don't know how many hours I've put into Morrowind, I played almost 300 hours of Skyrim and I'm slowly playing through Kingdoms of Amalur Reckoning.

One thing I notice is that many people want to make RPGs as hard as possible, either through mathematics, through combat or both. Whenever I find a game that's too hard, I hear a lot of complaints that the same game is far too easy on the hardest difficulty. I gave up on The Witcher as I didn't have the speed and reflexes needed for the rhythm based combat.

I'm frequently told that the best RPG series (along with the best strategy series) is the Fire Emblem series. I couldn't get past Shadow Dragon, a remake of the first game.

 

[Ajidica]

Speaking of Morrowind, what are the current mods and extras that you'd recommend for someone willing to replay that game now? I have some nostalgia for it. Though I confess on replaying I used went go straight to the ebony mine south of Balmora (if I'm recalling correctly...) to quickly get some nice equipment.
Are there good mods or other updates to the game worth installing? I can't recall which I used back then. The story was great, the mechanics... I'll try to resist enchanting stuff in a new game.

Morrowind Sound and Graphics Overhaul is basically required.
https://www.moddb.com/mods/morrowin.../downloads/morrowind-overhaul-sounds-graphics
It does a complete overhaul of the graphics, such as increasing the draw distance, adding in distant lands (so you can see mountains!), and adds shaders and stuff. Even if your computer can't handle the updated graphics, it is super useful in fixing a lot of assorted bugs and stuff.

Morrowind Code Patch
https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/19510
Fixes many things wrong with the underlying game engine.

Morrowind Rebirth
https://www.moddb.com/mods/morrowind-rebirth
Adds a lot more life to the game and does a bunch of rebalancing. The mod creator sometimes goes a bit overboard though with the life-adding. On the ModDB page under "Tutorials" there are links to other recommended mods.

Tamriel Rebuilt
https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/42145/
Long-running project to add the entire province of Morrowind (the base game just takes place on the island of Vvardenfell) to the game. The quality can be a bit rocky and it is definitely a work in progress, but still fascinating to explore.

Less Generic NPCs
http://lgnpc.org/
The mod adds a lot more unique dialogue and some quests. The quests can be a bit buggy and there isn't always a wiki for when you have no idea where you are going (and Morrowind's hideous journal leads you astray). Some dialogue isn't the best written and some of it is way too wordy, but still interesting to take a look.

 

[Arakhor]

MGSO is massively out of date now. You should check out the Morrowind STEP Project for a detailed series of instructions to have a modern modded game, or you can visit this site if you want the best way to also include Morrowind Rebirth and Tamriel Rebuilt.

 

[Mouthwash]

This looks to be useful:

 

[REDY]

Majority of RPGs are about saving world through fighting.

I have played a lot of RPGs. So...

I am looking for new experiences. Better original stories. More differences between classes than different stats or skills for crafting/fighting. More active world which is developing by own and not just waiting for hero.

 

[Broken_Erika]

They should make a new Dink Smallwood game.

 

[REDY]

They should make a new Dink Smallwood game.

Have you played The best Dink Smallwood mod, "The Search for Milli Vanilli"?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Majority of RPGs are about saving world through fighting.

I have played a lot of RPGs. So...

I am looking for new experiences. Better original stories. More differences between classes than different stats or skills for crafting/fighting. More active world which is developing by own and not just waiting for hero.

Have you tried Wolcen?

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Speaking of Morrowind, what are the current mods and extras that you'd recommend for someone willing to replay that game now? I have some nostalgia for it. Though I confess on replaying I used went go straight to the ebony mine south of Balmora (if I'm recalling correctly...) to quickly get some nice equipment.
Are there good mods or other updates to the game worth installing? I can't recall which I used back then. The story was great, the mechanics... I'll try to resist enchanting stuff in a new game.

Yes, I have one particular recommendation. If the mechanics don't speak to you much you oughta try Morroblivion. You play the Morrowind game world through the Oblivion game and engine. You can use almost all Oblivion mods, I recommend something like MMO or OOO, though personally I just opted for MMM and some minor mods. Head over to nexus, you'll find everything your heart desires. Just google Morroblivion, it's easy enough to find and set up actually.

 

[Yeekim]

Thread needs more this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Decadence

Visuals look like the game is from 2000, rather than 2015. Don't let that deceive you.
Brilliant worldbuilding, brilliant storytelling, and yes, very different options and experience based on your background and choices.

 

[Arakhor]

That is one of the eight games on GOG I'm still trying to get around to play.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

For me it is freedom, freedom fredoom. And a huge map.

 

[Mouthwash]

No one has mentioned Sonny or Sonny 2 yet.

(They're as close to the perfect turn-based RPG as you can possibly get, but are very short. I've done five or six Sonny 2 playthroughs now.)

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I am struggling with this one fundamental question:

Do you pick your class (two specializations in combat, two in crafting) at the beginning of the game and have it be irreversible, or do you get a huge bonus in exp towards your four "major" specializations, but can invest into any spec tree at any point in time, but minor ones will level very slowly?

"Put the big rocks in first" thinking:
Answer to these types of questions may drive how you approach the other more game detail questions.

• Open world (Skyrim) versus fixed story line (Diablo 2)
• Leveling versus end game (where will players spend most of their time and where will they want to spend most of their time?) Is the game a game about getting to end game or playing the end game?
• Fixed game areas that you play over and over versus endless dungeon (see POE Delve (expansion)
• Fixed character groups that tend to be narrow but can be complex versus open ended character development without artificial barriers
• How will characters get better gear? Finding, buying from NPC, trading with other players? Crafting? RMT?
• Will the cool game experiences be gated and by what? RNG? Amount of play time? In game money? Real money? Leveling?
• Will the game be balanced toward casual play or only your hardcore players? Put another way: who will you disappoint?

This was incredibly helpful. I prefer Open World, not even sure if I want a proper "main quest".

As for the second question.. There should be a very high ceiling for leveling and some enemies aren't supposed to be beaten if you haven't invested 50-100 hours into the game at least. But it's more about the journey than it is about just grinding to kill the big buys, like in WoW.

I would like to have both, fixed areas/dungeons that are only supposed to be visited once (opponents will respawn, loot will not) and instances that can be repeated infinite amounts of times and scale off of your character's level.

Classes are fixed, but one can "interfere" in space and time via a certain ressource, past decisions can be undone while leaving everything else intact, but it will cost you gold, development and said ressource. Character development happens both through choice (attributes and skills) and passively (increase-as-you-do). I do like barriers, especially regarding class, but I am not satisfied with the system as-is.

All of those, except trading with other players, since I have a single player game in mind.

Yes, some major areas in fact will be gated by strong NPCs that don't necessarily need you to be high level, just smart and well-equipped. Those Gatekeepers will specialize in, say, Fire Magic or Physical Damage and can be beaten by a character getting specific gear (or simply by a strong, high level character). Reputation will be another gatekeeper, but not RNG, playtime, money or gold.

I would gladly disappoint casual players, though to be honest I want the game to be played and enjoyed in a simple manner, no min-maxing or insane theorycrafting like in PoE or HoI or something similiar, rather I want transparence over everything, good stat menus that allow reading out any stat easily, skill trees that are succint and don't have any filler in them, crafting that is mostly self-explainatory.. Skyrim got a lot of things right in that respect. But, in general, my game would appeal to hardcore nerds who play for game mechanics as much as they do for lore or immersion (me! :lol )

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I am struggling with this one fundamental question:

Do you pick your class (two specializations in combat, two in crafting) at the beginning of the game and have it be irreversible, or do you get a huge bonus in exp towards your four "major" specializations, but can invest into any spec tree at any point in time, but minor ones will level very slowly?

I'd go with the second option and not pick a class at character creation. Instead add a specialization at level 5, 10, 15 and 20 when the player is more familiar with the mechanics.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

What makes a great RPG? I can't answer 'what,' but I do know who. Modders at the Bethesda forums.

 

[civvver]

Where are we drawing the line with rpgs? Rpg elements like zelda games, darksiders? Jrpgs? With loose definitions I've sampled tons, but not finished that many. I played a bit of diablo 3, pillars of eternity and witcher for example but didn't get far.

Anyway, for me a good rpg has to have backstory and immersion but with a sense of direction and purpose and good game systems that support that rather than detract. Let's compare an rpg I absolutely love in dragon age origins to one I hate, even with 100 hours played on it, skyrim (no mods).

Origins makes you feel like you are making a hero from scratch as you pick race, class and looks out but the backstory is predetermined. That's a huge point because it immerses you in the world without you having to contrive something and build it throughout the game. Skyrim doesn't do this. You're just some nameless prisoner at the start. Zero backstory other than your race.

Origins has a main quest line and objective. It's a little too closed off at points, but that sure beats the mess of an open world skyrim is. It seems to be open just for the sake of it, there isn't anything interesting in most of the world.

Origins has a very standard xp leveling up system, but I am totally fine with that as you look forward to levels and building skill trees. Skyrim has a mess of a leveling system which seems to make no difference in actual combat.

Origins loot could be improved a lot, it doesnt have that much variety but at least it has linear stats. Skyrims again look barely seems to matter at all.