What makes a great RPG?

[yung.carl.jung]

But luckily you spend most of your time with faction NPCs, and those are the ones who change as you go up the ladder. Usually this is self-contained to the faction but there is a little bit of crossover (between the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood).

I'm not going to pretend Skyrim's a masterpiece because it obviously isn't. I'm mostly fine with its dialogue system since I'm not there to hear what Nizar thinks, but in general I believe Bethesda could double their voice acting budget easily and it would only have positive results. It is why I hated that Fallout moved to a voiced protagonist. It really highlighted the weakness of a voiced dialogue system that is on a restricted voice acting budget. I'm sure they pay good money for the voice acting they have but it isn't good enough.

And mostly, I say Skyrim's the same because I didn't encounter very much groundbreaking dialogue in Morrowind. Granted, I didn't get very far because I hated its mechanics, but pretty much every NPC I met had the exact same things to say. That each conversation had 5-10 choices didn't matter because they all said the same copy-pasted thing, and it didn't really seem to be based on my character at all. It was like they were tourism pamphlets with faces.

noice. that's actually pretty cool, to have them referencing each other.

I genuinely do not care about the voice acting, I thought it was totally okay. I don't need a million dialogue options like in Morrowind, it was overwhelming and unecessary. What people said itt about me is true, I really am more of a G and less of an RP. what I would wish for is not better, more immersive voice acting, but being able to make actual decisions while talking to someone and a meaningful degree of freedom. skyrim often presents you with a problem: you need x item which this NPC has. then you can persuade, make a deal (which always means run a dumb errand) or just kill them. maybe bribe is an option. that's already pretty good, I mean that's something. but you're still 100% trapped in that you only have the relevant options during the quest. you can't walk up to someone and demand something of them via a threat. you cannot talk to royals and ask them to change their stance in the civil war. that's the sort of freedom I am looking for, dialogue not only being a tool to diversify quest, but to change events in the game world.

I know this isn't likely to be a thing, but that is what the game in my 3rd eye looks like. Like the example I gave earlier with the guard who does not want to let you in. I liked how in morrowind you could provoke any NPC until you got them to the point where they hated you and straight up attacked you. it was a dumb and broken system, but you could actually cause the prophecy that the entire game was built around to fail, which completely and irreversibly alters the game world and the paths you can take. that's pretty revolutionary.

There is very little groundbreaking dialogue in MW, but when it's there it's some of the best ever written for any video game. I especially recommend Divyath Fyr aka the guy who literally cloned himself in order to create four "daughters" that are essentially his servants, and it's heavily implied that they ****, too. Then there is the last dwemer, there is Dagoth Ur himself, but of all the characters I think Lord Vivec is done the best. Small lore spoiler: Vivec was born a hermaphrodite and lived his life as a thug and double-gendered prostitute. He became a general for Nerevar, but ended up backstabbing him, killing him in order to make himself an immortal deity. You can talk to him about almost every part of the lore, even accuse him of treason. That was pretty cool. Some of the looney characters also have really interestind dialogue. Some of the racists and their power fantasies are really interesting.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Why not just bring back Oblivion's disposition system?



That would be awful. What if I realized how much I wanted the 20% faster cast speed? Just make the class selection come after you're played for a bit, but don't screw with the bonuses.

I don't mean the bonuses, I mean the fact that you by yourself can decide whether you want to pick a class and be limited to those class' skills only, or whether you pick a specialization, but you can acquire all the other skills aswell, it will just take way more time because your main specs will level faster. why not leave the decision to the player? maybe even make this a part of difficulty, so on legendary difficulty you can only play with fixed classes, on easy you can pick any specs without penalties.

what I imagined was similiar to Oblivion's disposition or WoW faction system, yes.

 

[Patine]

The great advantage of a CRPG over pen and paper is that they can handle a lot for you.
Stuff in pen and paper that tends to slow a game down like complex rules for encumberance, fatigue, weapons doing different damage depending on the type of armour you wear the pc can do all the number crunching for you. Let the player know the basic principles but keep the mechanics under the hood.

All of these rules "that tend to slow the game down" vary between individual titles of pen-and-paper RPG. Also, DM/GM/Referee/Narrator/Judge/Storyteller/etc.'s are not obliged to enforce constantly, endlessly, rotely, and pendantically, taking them always into account at every single moment around the table - it's completely a judgement call - whereas, if an annoying mechanic of a computer RPG is constantly bugging you, you have to find or create a mod, and some such mechanics in some MMO RPG's won't allow modding such features.

 

[Birdjaguar]

That would be awful. What if I realized how much I wanted the 20% faster cast speed? Just make the class selection come after you're played for a bit, but don't screw with the bonuses.

There's nothing wrong with having to make thoughtful choices right from the start. Early commitment has its benefits. Later commitment can open different pathways. Well designed games offer interesting choices that can make a difference. Players always "want it all" at minimal cost. A well designed game forces you to choose different, but equally interesting and challenging paths.

The challenge for designers is to build the various pathways of an increasingly complex web of choices that keep the game sufficiently interesting that players push ahead towards the end game.

 

[The_J]

I agree that it this is a problem, but I don't really see a good way to fix this. There would be multiple options:
- Bar off Windhelm to an Argonian player. This would cut a lot off content from the Argonian player, make quests unwinnable and would be very confusing to players ("There needs to be a way in" - "There isn't, not at least not until a certain endgame quest")
- Make a specific Windhelm questline just for Argonian players. This would be good for Argonian players but bad for everyone else, because some of the limited resources are spent on content that only a fraction of the players will ever get to see

In that case, both would mean that the game devs are doing their jobs.
In Arcanum, there were certain quests which you would not get if you were too stupid, the wrong race, the wrong gender, had the wrong reputation, or messed up other quests. You were also not able to use certain equipment if you did the wrong choice, and could not get every type of companion depending on your playing style. You had alternatives for everything. This also made the replayability of the game very high, since you would all the time find something, which you could not do in the previous games. I still found in my 12th playthrough something new.
That is what makes a good story and a believable world in this case, it makes you feel that your opinions matter.
In the case here, the devs should have made the game flexible enough that it (the main story line) is doable in this setting, without violating the lore (need something? Sneak in, use an invisible spell, bribe someone to get it, or just slay the whole town). The rest...well... makes sense in this world. Need to get something for a side quest in there... and you cannot enter... then you cannot finish the side quest. Easy as it is. Better if there are alternatives, but it makes sense that not everything can be achieved.

 

[Birdjaguar]

@yung.carl.jung do you envision your game to be more quest and dialog driven (like Skyrim) or more "I can mostly skip the story if I want and just go kill monsters?"

 

[Lexicus]

@yung.carl.jung do you envision your game to be more quest and dialog driven (like Skyrim) or more "I can mostly skip the story if I want and just go kill monsters?"

This confuses me because the latter is how I play Skyrim, mostly. I don't ignore the main quest but I spend a while being a nondescript dude just roaming around the wilderness killing bandits and crafting low-level items and stuff before I get on the whole dragon train.

 

[Birdjaguar]

This confuses me because the latter is how I play Skyrim, mostly. I don't ignore the main quest but I spend a while being a nondescript dude just roaming around the wilderness killing bandits and crafting low-level items and stuff before I get on the whole dragon train.

That is how you play it now. Did you run through the story the first time or two you played? My remarks were directed at how he wants players to interact as they learn the game and play it as different classes for the first few times.

Once someone has mastered a game their play certainly changes.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That is how you play it now. Did you run through the story the first time or two you played? My remarks were directed at how he wants players to interact as they learn the game and play it as different classes for the first few times.

Once someone has mastered a game their play certainly changes.

With Bethesda games I always do some wandering around first so I can decide whether to mod the game. The people who say "play it through and see what you like and don't like before you mod" I disagree with heartily. You only get one chance at that first feeling of discovery in the cool worlds full of cool stories that BethSoft produces, and spending it on the poorly designed, poorly balanced systems of game mechanics that BethSoft also frequently produces is a criminal waste.

 

[Lexicus]

That is how you play it now. Did you run through the story the first time or two you played?

Yes. The first time I played I delayed the main quest in favor of random dungeon-crawling and side-questing to such an extent that I already had the Elder Scroll in my inventory by the time I hit the part in the main quest where you need it.

 

[Birdjaguar]

So given that, what elements would you include in a new game to enhance the experience of first timers? More story? More killing? More world experiences?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Yes. The first time I played I delayed the main quest in favor of random dungeon-crawling and side-questing to such an extent that I already had the Elder Scroll in my inventory by the time I hit the part in the main quest where you need it.

This is another known problem with BethSoft games. I crawl around a bit to check out the mechanics, but I know going in that it is just a test character. When I'm ready to do the story I start over.

 

[Birdjaguar]

This is another known problem with BethSoft games. I crawl around a bit to check out the mechanics, but I know going in that it is just a test character. When I'm ready to do the story I start over.

Like first waffles, I think most first characters in an arpg are throwaways. Designers should take this into account when building the initial encounters characters have.

 

[Lexicus]

So given that, what elements would you include in a new game to enhance the experience of first timers? More story? More killing? More world experiences?

What I find I want out of Skyrim is mostly more NPCs, and more dynamism, both driven by player choice and just generally speaking. Skyrim doesn't take that long to start feeling kind of lifeless because the NPCs all do the same things day in and day out and there aren't that many of them.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Thanks, but I have to go. I have a doctor's appointment because of the an arrow I took in the knee.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If I were in Skyrim I would start a business crafting buckler shields that can be worn on the knees. Then I could just buy the dragons.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

After 500+ hours in five years I still haven't completed Skyrim's main quest because I roleplay.
Because I don't want a Mary Sue character who's awesome at everything I start a new character every time I finish a faction quest.
Finished the Companions line ?
OK.
See you later !
I'll now play a mage who never uses weapons or armor !
Done with that ?
A'ight, now I'm a murderous Bosmer who only use bows and sometimes Illusion or Conjuration magic.

 

[Yeekim]

That is one of the eight games on GOG I'm still trying to get around to play.

Get to it then.

I haven't quite seen other games where your choices are so limited by your original build and affiliation.

You start with a choice of who you get to be - will you start as a bodyguard to a certain NPC? A thief sent to rob him? A trader sent to deal with him? An assassin who has to kill him? A conman to swindle him?
You can complete the game as a pure talker or a pure fighter (but quests might be totally different).
You can attain godhood, or (lot more likely) end up double-crossed and dead in a ditch.
And based on your starting build you may absolutely not be able to even penetrate certain areas.
This would be disappointing and/or intimidating in a huge open world, but this is what the game does not have. Instead, it is of manageable size and length - you'll complete a run in a day or two.
Therefore you will likely complete it at least half a dozen times, intrigued by the story, trying to see different angles, manage one outcome or another and generally just trying to figure out what the hell is actually going on in this universe.

 

[Arakhor]

So a run is 10 or so hours? That's much more manageable.

 

[innonimatu]

Yes, I have one particular recommendation. If the mechanics don't speak to you much you oughta try Morroblivion. You play the Morrowind game world through the Oblivion game and engine. You can use almost all Oblivion mods, I recommend something like MMO or OOO, though personally I just opted for MMM and some minor mods. Head over to nexus, you'll find everything your heart desires. Just google Morroblivion, it's easy enough to find and set up actually.

I think (it has been a while) that I liked Morrowind's gameplay better. Wasn't Oblivion already more plagued with auto-scaling the enemies? Less so than Skyrim, but still?